The official jlauber and Wilt Chamberlain thread

[Linspired]

jlauber, not sure what you are implying... but hakeem didn't really go up against kareem too much. it was ralph sampson who guarded kareem most of the time. sampson probably wanted to challenge kareem not only because they were similar in height, but because sampson was viewed as 2nd best center in his own team. him preferring to play PF rather than center time to time also probably made him to go up against kareem more. kareem has no problem shooting over smaller hakeem even at age 38 -39. hakeem at this career was finisher & shot blocker. he didn't dominate guys with his signature dream shake just yet. i recall hakeem guarding worthy and rambis alot in 86 series. he also did guard kareem, but again kareem wasn't his main asignment.


anyway,

23 regular season H2H
hakeem 22.3/11.9/2.6 .51%
kareem 22.5/6.6/1.9 .60%

playoffs
hakeem 31/11.2/2.2/2/4block
kareem 27/6.8/3.4.8/2.4block

but again, they really didn't go at it each other. it was sampson's job to neutralize kareem, not hakeem.

if i had to guess, older and more experienced 38 kareem would still hold his own against 72 wilt especially if he was playing with worthy, magic & etc. kareem not having to do everything on his own would allow him to be efficient IMO even against great wilt. i won't even be surprised if 38 year old kareem shoots over .50% against 72 wilt. after all when you have Magic on your side, you will get some easy baskets for sure. he probably won't score more than 20pts though.

[LAClipsFan33]

jlauber has some very good info...it's not for the "Didn't Read LOL" gif trolls. So many people can't even manage to read a paragraph in a decent amount of time so they diss him because he likes to be thorough.

Nobody wants to go head to head with him because his info is so thorough...instead of these guys that talk sh*t to him deciding to come up with an argument against him just as detailed they resort to "LOL Didn't Read/OP is a fakkit" posts. Which in my eyes are just an admission of defeat.

[Linspired]

wilt blocking kareem's sky hook
http://youtu.be/EwHP04TWOps


but let's stop acting like kareem's sky hook is totally unblockable. he barely had any lift on the first block. 2nd block was impressive, but still kareem's hand was barely over the rim when the ball was released. wilt with freaky length timed it perfectly and got a clean block. looks like his finger tip is about foot over the rim meaning guys like dwight or mcgee could also block that shot if they time it right.

[Colbertnation64]

wilt blocking kareem's sky hook
http://youtu.be/EwHP04TWOps


but let's stop acting like kareem's sky hook is totally unblockable. he barely had any lift on the first block. 2nd block was impressive, but still kareem's hand was barely over the rim when the ball was released. wilt with freaky length timed it perfectly and got a clean block. looks like his finger tip is about foot over the rim meaning guys like dwight or mcgee could also block that shot if they time it right.

"if they timed it right"

have you ever played basketball before? timing is sort of everything

[Linspired]

"if they timed it right"

have you ever played basketball before? timing is sort of everything

of course shot blocking is all about timing. but people think sky hook is like a something mythical monster that no one can stop. it's not. great shot blocker could block it. it would be very difficult, but it can be done. i've seen hakeem do it. i've seen eaton do it. shot being released at 12ft is just nothing but a myth. maybe kareem did few times in his absolute peak, but his 'normal' sky hook wasn't released that high. it barely was over 10ft, and many times below the rim.

but he didn't have to. it was quick & methodical, and he guarded himself with left elbow so there is a separation between him and a defender. and later his sky hook had much more arc than before, so in compensated his lack of athleticism.

and in that 2nd block, kareem kinda rushed it and he leaned a little. maybe he learned his lesson against the great wilt. no doubt kareem's sky hook was work in progress at this point of his career.

[Deuce Bigalow]

jlauber, not sure what you are implying... but hakeem didn't really go up against kareem too much. it was ralph sampson who guarded kareem most of the time. kareem has no problem shooting over smaller hakeem even at age 38 -39. hakeem at this career was finisher & shot blocker. he didn't dominate guys with his signature dream shake just yet. i'm certain hakeem was athletic enough to guard 3 positions. i recall him guarding worthy and rambis in 86 series.




23 regular season H2H
kareem 22.5/6.6/1.9 .60%
hakeem 22.3/11.9/2.6 .51%


playoffs
kareem 31/11.2/2.2/2/4block
hakeem 27/4.4/6.8/.8/2.4block

but again, they really didn't go at it each other. it was sampson's job to neutralize kareem, not hakeem.

if i had to guess, older and more experienced 38 kareem would still hold his own against 72 wilt especially if he was playing with worthy, magic & etc. kareem not having to do everything on his own would allow him to be efficient IMO even against great wilt. i won't even be surprised if 38 year old kareem shoots over .50% against 72 wilt. after all when you have Magic on your side, you will get some easy baskets for sure. he probably won't score more than 20pts though.

4.4 rpg for a center?

[Linspired]

4.4 rpg for a center?

woops typo

this is correct h2h

playoffs
hakeem 31/11.2/4block .520%
kareem 27/6.8/2.4block .496%

but again his assignment really wasn't kareem.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=abdulka01

[Pointguard]

I have been reading jlauber's posts over the years, and for a perceived homer, he does offer a lot of good history.

Raz (Ced)

As in real time, those who have passion for what they do and give time to, are the engines of good conversation. He backs up his post intellectually and thoroughly, in fact, he's among the best on this site, if not the best. As a player and coach, I can tell when posters haven't played but Jlauber doesn't show a weakness in understanding player dynamics. His creative arguments are also at a high level. So yeah, he's the type of poster that you wish there were more of.

[Pointguard]

Which brings me to two points. One, Kareem was "the Bridge"...the player who played in the NBA in 1969, and who retired from the NBA in 1989. His career was one year short of spanning FOUR decades. Here was a Kareem, a PRIME Kareem, who was, by ALL ACCOUNTS, outplayed by a 34 and 35 year old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, and at the twillight of his career. A Chamberlain who not only held a PRIME Kareem to .464 shooting in 28 career H2H games, but who held him down to .434 shooting in their LAST TEN H2H games. In fact, in the last FOUR pivotal games of the '72 WCF's, Chamberlain reduced Kareem to a .414 shooter.

Furthermore, a PRIME Kareem who had a TOTAL of SEVEN 30+ point games, and with a HIGH game of 34 points, in 43 H2H games against an older, and declining Thurmond. Think about that...a geriatric Kareem had SIX 30+ point games, at ages 38 and 39, against a near prime Hakeem, and in only TEN H2H's (and ALL on just mind-numbing efficiencies.) And yet, in 43 H2H's against a declining Nate...SEVEN. In fact, Nate held Kareem to SEVEN games UNDER 20 points in those 43 games. Even more shocking, was that the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence suggests that Kareem may not have even shot .430 against Thurmond in those 43 H2H's. He had a KNOWN three straight playoff series of .486, .405 (in a series in which Thurmond outscored and outshot him), and .428. Oh, and BTW, a 38-42 year old Kareem not only outscored Hakeem in their 23 career H2H's, he outshot him by an astonishing .610 to .512 margin (and keep in mind that Kareem couldn't guard his grandmother at those ages, either.)

All of which is interesting. Here was a Kareem just PLASTERING not only Hakeem, and at will, but in the same week he was embarrassing Hakeem with that 46 point game, a 39 year old Kareem outscored Patrick Ewing by a 40-9 margin, in a game in which he outshot Patrick, 15-22 to 3-17!

Oh, and back to the TEN STRAIGHT GAMES in which a 38-39 year old Kareem just BURIED Hakeem. The only as impressive run as there has been in NBA history, was a string of TWENTY (yes 20) STRAIGHT GAMES in which Chamberlain AVERAGED 48.2 ppg against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy. Included in that amazing stretch, were FOUR games of 60+ points, and a HIGH game of 73 points (on 29-48 shooting, and along with 36 rebounds.)

Not only that, but in their known H2H FG%'s, Wilt was BLOWING Thurmond away. Interesting too, was that Kareem, in his three straight playoff series against Thurmond, could only shot .486, .428, and a HORRID .405. And yet, Wilt also faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outshot him by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .392; and an unfathomable (especially against Thurmond) margin of .560 to .343 in the '67 Finals (in a season in which Thurmond had his highest MVP voting...second, and behind Wilt.)

In fact, Kareem would face MANY of the SAME centers that a PRIME Chamberlain just annihilated. Where were Kareem's multiple 50 point games against Reed? Where were his multiple 60 point games against Bellamy? Where were his 38 and 45 point explosions against Thurmond? Hell, where was his 72 point game (as well as other 60 point games) against LeRoy Ellis? Where was his 60 point game against Dierking? Or his 66 point game against Fox? Or, how about this...where was Kareem's 100 point game against Imhoff?

The fact was, Kareem never came with the other side of the Galaxy at dominating the SAME centers that a PRIME Chamberlain just slaughtered. Kareem's career HIGH game, in 20 years, was a 55 point game. Chamberlain had 32 of 60+, and in only 14 seasons.

Another interesting point, as well. 6-11 265 lb. Bob Lanier joined the NBA in the '71 season. Chamberlain would face Lanier in TEN STRAIGHT games, and in his LAST two seasons, and in which Wilt AVERAGED 24.5 ppg on, get this... .750 shooting! Lanier would battle Kareem on nearly even terms throughout the 70's. As would Artis Gilmore.

Gilmore is another interesting case. I haven't been able to determine if Hakeem guarded him in their TEN H2H games in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, but in any case, Gilmore was, BY FAR AND AWAY, the BEST player on the floor in those TEN STRAIGHT GAMES. And, the boxscore has the two lined up in every one. In any case, in those TEN STRAIGHT H2H's, Gilmore dramatically outscored and outshot Hakeem. In fact, a 35-36 year old Gilmore AVERAGED 23.7 ppg, on, get this... .677 shooting in those games.

We KNOW that Hakeem TRIED to defend Kareem in those 10 STRAIGHT GAMES in the 84-85 season, and there is a strong possibility that he also TRIED to guard Gilmore in those other TEN STRAIGHT GAMES. If, indeed Hakeem guarded both, he was arguably the WORST defensive center in the NBA in those two seasons. Neither Kareem, nor Gilmore, came close to those numbers against the rest of the NBA in those years.

These bridge arguments were among the some of the best post I've seen on this board or among all of the boards I've read. They provide context for change and how the game didn't change.

It takes courage to change your mind. The bridge argument encouraged Jlauber to change his prior thoughts on how things change. Its not being hypocritical or twisted, its called moving on to a better place with your ideas and how they apply to the game. You can't really grow unless you do that.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Just remember that Kareem was old and getting to the point where he should retire by the time Hakeem entered the league. Camparing those two head to head from 85 to 89 is kinda silly. Jabbar was 42 in 1989.

[Pointguard]

of course shot blocking is all about timing. but people think sky hook is like a something mythical monster that no one can stop. it's not. great shot blocker could block it. it would be very difficult, but it can be done. i've seen hakeem do it. i've seen eaton do it. shot being released at 12ft is just nothing but a myth. maybe kareem did few times in his absolute peak, but his 'normal' sky hook wasn't released that high. it barely was over 10ft, and many times below the rim.

but he didn't have to. it was quick & methodical, and he guarded himself with left elbow so there is a separation between him and a defender. and later his sky hook had much more arc than before, so in compensated his lack of athleticism.

and in that 2nd block, kareem kinda rushed it and he leaned a little. maybe he learned his lesson against the great wilt. no doubt kareem's sky hook was work in progress at this point of his career.

People talk about Dirk's shot being unlockable and its about a foot lower in its release than Kareem's. Eaton could, on rare ocassion, block the 'later' sky hook he had no chance of catching the one that Chamberlain caught in that video. Kareem does a "Dream shake" (its actually a Rutger playground move made popular by the Pearl) in that video and was way too quick for most centers - that video you provided is in slow motion. Eaton could not have aligned his footing to be close to matching KAJ's quickness and torques. Kareem had way more bounce in his step when he first came into the league.

The later skyhook was slower, more methodical and much more predictable. As he got older it was a lazier shot with just more arch and shoulder space. When 6'5 Dantley had bounce in his step his release point was about at 7 feet and his shot was rarely blocked and he lived posting up. When he slowed down it was getting swatted. And you also didn't factor in that Kareem never scored like that ever again and that back then KAJ had to be more creative like the rest of the centers in that league at that time - No Magic with the hook up down low. The sky hook was a work in regress after that. You never see the footing get set as quick, and you never see the preliminary moves as fluid than in that Chamberlain film.

[Linspired]

kareem shot .434 in the playoffs between 1972 and 1973. Kareem played 17 games in that 2 year pan and he played wilt 6 times and rest was against Nate thurmond. 2 time first nba defensive teamer thurmond did a great job playing D holding kareem to shoot below 44% in two series just like wilt did. so it wasn't just wilt who did a great job guarding a young superstar.

IMO, kareem really wasn't peaking at that time of his career even though his regular season stat may suggest that he was indeed in his peak. most definitely he was in his athletic prime, but he still had rooms to grow as a player and a leader.

kareem was probably thinking he was invincible. i mean this is a dude who couldn't lose at UCLA, being heralded as the next big thing. and winning a championship so early in his career made him a god like status, and most likely made everyone to forget about wilt/russell. he probably got a big bullseye in his back and these veterans(wilt/thurmond) wanted show the young stud that they still have something left. and sometimes when player experiences success too early in his career is not always a great thing.

anyway, how did kareem do against wilt in 70-71 in the playoffs?

[Linspired]

People talk about Dirk's shot being unlockable and its about a foot lower in its release than Kareem's. Eaton could, on rare ocassion, block the 'later' sky hook he had no chance of catching the one that Chamberlain caught in that video. Kareem does a "Dream shake" (its actually a Rutger playground move made popular by the Pearl) in that video and was way too quick for most centers - that video you provided is in slow motion. Eaton could not have aligned his footing to be close to matching KAJ's quickness and torques. Kareem had way more bounce in his step when he first came into the league.

The later skyhook was slower, more methodical and much more predictable. As he got older it was a lazier shot with just more arch and shoulder space. When 6'5 Dantley had bounce in his step his release point was about at 7 feet and his shot was rarely blocked and he lived posting up. When he slowed down it was getting swatted. And you also didn't factor in that Kareem never scored like that ever again and that back then KAJ had to be more creative like the rest of the centers in that league at that time - No Magic with the hook up down low. The sky hook was a work in regress after that. You never see the footing get set as quick, and you never see the preliminary moves as fluid than in that Chamberlain film.

dirk's shot is unblockable because he creates so much separation. something we've never seen before by a 7ft guy.




IMO dirk shot is slightly more unblockable than kareem's because it is guarded by much smaller defenders, and dirk really creates absurd amount of spaces with his knee. ESPN sports science broke down the dirk fadeaway, and they said dirk creates 4ft of separation. and i remember host was saying even yao ming(9ft 8 standing reach) with derrick rose's 40 inch vertical can't block dirk's classic fadeaway. 9ft 8 + 40 inch = 13ft

but of course kareem's sky hook was more dominant because it was such a high % shot. at the end of the day, dirk is below .50% shooter.

[julizaver]

kareem shot .434 in the playoffs between 1972 and 1973. Kareem played 17 games in that 2 year pan and he played wilt 6 times and rest was against Nate thurmond. 2 time first nba defensive teamer thurmond did a great job playing D holding kareem to shoot below 44% in two series just like wilt did. so it wasn't just wilt who did a great job guarding a young superstar.

IMO, kareem really wasn't peaking at that time of his career even though his regular season stat may suggest that he was indeed in his peak. most definitely he was in his athletic prime, but he still had rooms to grow as a player and a leader.

kareem was probably thinking he was invincible. i mean this is a dude who couldn't lose at UCLA, being heralded as the next big thing. and winning a championship so early in his career made him a god like status, and most likely made everyone to forget about wilt/russell. he probably got a big bullseye in his back and these veterans(wilt/thurmond) wanted show the young stud that they still have something left. and sometimes when player experiences success too early in his career is not always a great thing.

anyway, how did kareem do against wilt in 70-71 in the playoffs?

You can find your answers here.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=170340

[jlauber]

jlauber, not sure what you are implying... but hakeem didn't really go up against kareem too much. it was ralph sampson who guarded kareem most of the time. sampson probably wanted to challenge kareem not only because they were similar in height, but because sampson was viewed as 2nd best center in his own team. him preferring to play PF rather than center time to time also probably made him to go up against kareem more. kareem has no problem shooting over smaller hakeem even at age 38 -39. hakeem at this career was finisher & shot blocker. he didn't dominate guys with his signature dream shake just yet. i recall hakeem guarding worthy and rambis alot in 86 series. he also did guard kareem, but again kareem wasn't his main asignment.


anyway,

23 regular season H2H
hakeem 22.3/11.9/2.6 .51%
kareem 22.5/6.6/1.9 .60%

playoffs
hakeem 31/11.2/2.2/2/4block
kareem 27/6.8/3.4.8/2.4block

but again, they really didn't go at it each other. it was sampson's job to neutralize kareem, not hakeem.

if i had to guess, older and more experienced 38 kareem would still hold his own against 72 wilt especially if he was playing with worthy, magic & etc. kareem not having to do everything on his own would allow him to be efficient IMO even against great wilt. i won't even be surprised if 38 year old kareem shoots over .50% against 72 wilt. after all when you have Magic on your side, you will get some easy baskets for sure. he probably won't score more than 20pts though.

Actually, we have a considerable amount of evidence clearing pointing to Hakeem TRYING to guard a 38-39 year old Kareem in most of their H2H's. There was VIDEO footage of the Kareem's 40 point game against Hakeem on YouTube, (and it might still be there in it's entirety, but I am too lazy to look), but here is the edited version (and probably edited by a Rocket's fan) of that 40 point game. In it you will see Hakeem as the prmary defender.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q5QE...eature=related

And thanks to PHILA, we have this recap of Kareem's monstrous 46 point effort against Hakeem (in only 37 minutes BTW.)

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=206575

Worthy after the game: "Kareem always plays better against Olajuwon. It's because of all the comparisons. He's been around 17 years but he still has to show the kids that he's the best."

Hakeem after the game: "He played real tough. I tried to go around him and steal the ball but he slipped around me and went to the basket."


Los Angeles Times:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career high is 55) had he played any longer.

As for your H2H numbers between the two, you are a good poster, but you made the same mistake that Dickwad did in a similar topic on the Gilmore-Hakeem H2H's...you are forgetting the Kareem-Hakeem FIVE H2H games of the '84-85 season (Basketball Reference has the box scores, but only goes back to 85-86 for H2H's.)

Here were Kareem's numbers in the 84-85 H2H's...

32 14-22 .636
34 14-20 .700
40 16-29 .551
19 8-16 .500
30 13-17 .765

And here are the 38-39 Kareem's numbers in their first ten straight H2H games overall...

32 14-22 .636
34 14-20 .700
40 16-29 .551
19 8-16 .500
30 13-17 .765

35 17-26 .654
46 21-30 .700
43 16-24 .667
18 7-12 .583
23 10-19 .526

320
136-215 .633

Or 32 ppg on an astonishing .633 FG%...all from a 38-39 year old.

As for the Gilmore-Hakeem H2H's, I am not certain how much the two defended each other, but CLEARLY, in their first TEN STRAIGHT H2H games, a 35-36 year old Gilmore, in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, put up these numbers against either Hakeem (incidently they were lined up against each other in the box scores)...

84-85 season


1.

Gilmore 8-11 11-13 27
Olajuwon 7-12 0-1 14

2.

Gilmore 9-14 5-6 23
Olajuwon 11-20 5-7 27

3.

Gilmore 4-7 4-7 12
Olajuwon 10-18 2-5 22

4.

Gilmore 11-18 13-17 35
Olajuwon 6-14 6-9 18

5.

Gilmore 10-13 12-13 32
Olajuwon 6-13 4-4 16

6.

Gilmore 10-15 9-10 29
Olajuwon 7-18 2-3 16


Gilmore 52-78 54-66 158
Olajuwon 47-95 19-29 113

Gilmore .666 26.3 ppg
Olajuwon .494 18.8 ppg



85-86

4 games

Gilmore 34-49 .694 79 19.8 ppg
Olajuwon 28-57 .491 74 18.5 ppg


Thru 85-86

10 games

Gilmore 86-127 .677 237 23.7 ppg
Olajuwon 75-152 .493 187 18.7 ppg

More to come...