Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

[bizil]

The double standard is just incredible. So Pippens defense on Magiic doesn't matter because he was a great defender? Let me show you the magnitude of Pippens ability to defend Magic. As we all know, Pippen switched on to Magic because Jordan got into foul trouble defending him. Let say instead of Pippen, George Gervin is the Bulls SF. A 30 ppg scorer. The Bulls have noone capable of assuming the. Responsibility of defending Magic. Two things are gonna happen.

1. Jordan must stay on him and just be loose. Magic shreds the Bulls defense and while Jordan offense is minimized because he must spend time on the bench. Something very similar to what happened to the thunder this past Finals. Durants impact was. Minimized because he stayed in foul trouble trying to defend James.

2. They switch Gervin on to Magic in an effort to keep Jordan out of foul trouble. Magic get Gervin in foul trouble while shredding the Bulls with his offense and passing.


In both scenarios the Bulls probably lose game 2 because both Jordans and Gervins effectiveness would be minimzied due to fouls. And thus the Bulls go to LA down 0-2 with three straight games in LA.

What Pippen did was clutch

A peak Gervin and MJ at the same time would have been devastating, but in a different way. The Bulls could have possibly wheeled and dealed and got a perimeter defender to still take the heat off of MJ in terms of having to check Magic. But I will give Pip this, he was the perfect compliment to MJ. He took pressure off of MJ in terms of being the main perimeter defender and assist guy. And Pip was a very good scorer who could get his 20-23 a night. If it was MJ and Gervin, they would be tougher to stop scoring wise. But MJ would have to take on more of the passing and defensive duties. So the Bulls would have to win a different way. Pip was the perfect compliment, but peak Gervin and peak MJ would have been devastating! It would just be different and hopefully the Bulls would have acquired a defensive wing to go with it.

[kizut1659]

The double standard is just incredible. So Pippens defense on Magiic doesn't matter because he was a great defender? Let me show you the magnitude of Pippens ability to defend Magic. As we all know, Pippen switched on to Magic because Jordan got into foul trouble defending him. Let say instead of Pippen, George Gervin is the Bulls SF. A 30 ppg scorer. The Bulls have noone capable of assuming the. Responsibility of defending Magic. Two things are gonna happen.

1. Jordan must stay on him and just be loose. Magic shreds the Bulls defense and while Jordan offense is minimized because he must spend time on the bench. Something very similar to what happened to the thunder this past Finals. Durants impact was. Minimized because he stayed in foul trouble trying to defend James.

2. They switch Gervin on to Magic in an effort to keep Jordan out of foul trouble. Magic get Gervin in foul trouble while shredding the Bulls with his offense and passing.


In both scenarios the Bulls probably lose game 2 because both Jordans and Gervins effectiveness would be minimzied due to fouls. And thus the Bulls go to LA down 0-2 with three straight games in LA.

What Pippen did was clutch

I love how you ignored basically everything in my post and the one point you've adressed you completely miscarecterized what i've said. I AGREED with you that Pippen is a great defender! The only point i was making is that great defense is not "clutch" - its a freaking skill. BOTH Pippen and Havlicek had it, just like both of them had excellent all-around game with passing and rebounding. What separates Havlicek from Pippen is superior scoring and clutch play. I don't care how much you want to twist the facts but that cannot be disputed by anyone who has any objectivity.

BTW this is very secondary and i am not saying that Pippen's defense in 1991 did not help and that he did not do a good job but Magic still averaged 18.6/8/12.4 in the finals. This was not quite the 1987 version of Magic so yes, Pippen should get the credit, but Jordan was BY FAR the mvp of that series.

[Gifted Mind]

I've constantly said this and will say it again: Havlicek is the most underrated player on ISH.

[97 bulls]

But Pip's standing would plummet WAY MORE THAN MJ's or Bron' ranking! Because MJ and Bron are simply in another universe than Pippen. Take rings away and MJ and Bron would be first ballot HOF. I can't say the same about Pippen. Especially when a guy like Worthy with three rings wasn't first ballot.
I can't disagree with this. But I'm not trying to compare Pippen with James and Jordan.

It's unfortunate many felt Bron and MJ were losers. U gotta look at the sum of the parts as well. I feel gotta blame the surrounding cast MORE than you would MJ or Bron. MJ ran into the Celtics and Pistons early in his career. MJ and the Bulls were NEVER favored to beat those teams initially.
But neither was Pippen. And yet you penalize him for not winning in 94. Saying he didn't do enough to win. Well no one did enough to win if they lose. And James did lose to teams his Cavs teams should've beat. But he gets a pass right?


It was when Pippen and Grant came of age that the Bulls became a force. Everybody doesn't have the luxury to join a team with KAJ, Nixon, and Wilkes like Magic. Bron got one of the worst Eastern Conference Title teams ever to the Finals in the Cavs. Though should have been applauded instead of hated on. Bron ran into the Pistons and later the Celtics. Two teams the were clearly better.
Oh please. James and his Cavs teams played in a conference that was terrible. That Pistons team was injury riddled.


In terms of MVPs, they can be overrated at times. GOAT standing takes WAY MORE INTO ACCOUNT than an MVP vote. Therefore, I feel u can come to a more logical conclusion GOAT wise as opposed to MVP. Both are based on opinion, but GOAT or HOF type stuff gives u a larger body of work to choose from. MVP is just for that 1 year. GOAT-HOF can take into account possibly 20 years of accolades both solo and team, longevity being great, numbers, and impact on the L. (redefining position, a face of the L casual fan wise) So I have more ammo to throw at somebody in terms of debating a legacy INSTEAD of a one season. Sure Pippen in '94 was the best perimeter player in the world. But legacy wise, Pippen is FAR FROM THAT DISTINCTION, VERY FAR!

Well, you asked me and I gave you my opinion. Championships and MVPs are the most important criteria when ranking players in my opinion.

[97 bulls]

A peak Gervin and MJ at the same time would have been devastating, but in a different way. The Bulls could have possibly wheeled and dealed and got a perimeter defender to still take the heat off of MJ in terms of having to check Magic. But I will give Pip this, he was the perfect compliment to MJ. He took pressure off of MJ in terms of being the main perimeter defender and assist guy. And Pip was a very good scorer who could get his 20-23 a night. If it was MJ and Gervin, they would be tougher to stop scoring wise. But MJ would have to take on more of the passing and defensive duties. So the Bulls would have to win a different way. Pip was the perfect compliment, but peak Gervin and peak MJ would have been devastating! It would just be different and hopefully the Bulls would have acquired a defensive wing to go with it.

Think about what your saying, Pippens impact is tantamount to two players. In this case Gervin and a solid wing defender.

Funny thing is, whenever someone wants to replace Pippen, its always with a center. Like Ewing or Robinson

[97 bulls]

I love how you ignored basically everything in my post and the one point you've adressed you completely miscarecterized what i've said. I AGREED with you that Pippen is a great defender! The only point i was making is that great defense is not "clutch" - its a freaking skill. BOTH Pippen and Havlicek had it, just like both of them had excellent all-around game with passing and rebounding. What separates Havlicek from Pippen is superior scoring and clutch play. I don't care how much you want to twist the facts but that cannot be disputed by anyone who has any objectivity.
So if I'm understanding you, defense can never be clutch because its a skill, but offense or the ability to score isn't? Ok


BTW this is very secondary and i am not saying that Pippen's defense in 1991 did not help and that he did not do a good job but Magic still averaged 18.6/8/12.4 in the finals. This was not quite the 1987 version of Magic so yes, Pippen should get the credit, but Jordan was BY FAR the mvp of that series.
You cant go off stats solely. However, Magic shot a terrible percentage, had a lot of TOs, and the Lakers offense was flustered. During the regular season, the Lakers avg 106 ppg. In the finals, it dropped to 90.

Jus outta curiousity, what would Pippen stats look like had he played in the 60s?

[aceman]

I realize u have clutch defense too. I NEVER DOUBTED PIP ON THAT!! I'm talking about clutch scoring!! And I doubt Pippen on that. Shit i would rather have PG's willing me to victory scoring such as CP3, Rose, DWill, Westbrook, and Parker before Pippen. Or if u wanna go old school Isiah, Clyde Frazier, or Tiny. Magic and Big O go without saying.

scottie brought a lot more to the table than any of those guys, that's what made him great. you just happen to rank shooting above everything else.

[KG215]

Wait, I know Pippen switched to Magic in game two and I think guarded him most of or for a half of game three, but I'm pretty sure Jordan was his primary defender the rest of the series.

[aceman]

He functioned as an assistant coach under Russel in 1968 and 1969. He was the undisputed leader in the 70s - see the SI article i linked above. Pippen was only a leader in 1993-1994 and his most famous moment from that season is refusing to enter the game when the final shot was called for Kukoc. He showed zero leadership in Houston in 1999. In 2000, it was Portland's lack of leadership among other things that led to the worst 4th collapse in league history up to that time. Wasn't Pippen 0 for 2 in that quarter? I know Pippen was older then but he was younger than Havlicek in 1976, when he led an aging Boston team to a final championship and made clutch shots along the way.

ask phil jackson about pippen as a leader

[97 bulls]

Wait, I know Pippen switched to Magic in game two and I thin guarded him most of or for a half of game three, but I'm pretty sue Jordan was his primary defender the rest of the series.

Jordan was. I was talking about game two exclusively.

[nycelt84]

Cut the excuses. If Hondo was so great he would gotten more MVP votes.


And he was considered one of the best by the late 60s/early 70s because the ABA was taking a lot of basketballs top players. Throw Malone, Dr.J, Hawkins, and a few others in the NBA, and he would've never sniffed an MVP vote

This is circa 70-73. Dr. J and Malone weren't even playing pro basketball then and Hawkins was in the NBA. But what should I expect from the guy who claims Pippen has more clutch moments in the playoffs than Havlicek and who knows nothing about Havlicek's clutch playoffs moments lol. Havlicek stealing the ball in Game 7 of the '65 ECF is more clutch than anything Pippen ever did. And that's not even before bringing up what Havlicek did in the '68, '69, and '76 Finals among several other years.

[pauk]

Pippen was better defensively, but Havlicek was better overall especially during his peak.

During their peaks the statistics/productions werent that close either. At two points in his career Havlicek was flirting with almost 30 point triple double averages (29-9-8 and then 28-8-8). Havlicek was the alpha dog in at least 1 championship run, arguably 2.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I've constantly said this and will say it again: Havlicek is the most underrated player on ISH.

One of the most underrated players ever at that.

[SHAQisGOAT]

You ought to be ashamed of yourself making this dumb post.

LOL what dumb post? The only one I'm seeing making dumb posts is you. You probably 13 though, I forgive

[Smoke117]

Scottie Pippen.