The notion that Wilt had little help is utterly false.

[Psileas]

How about Wilt's post-season DEFENSE?

These are some great numbers here.
I'm too lazy to look up the specific numbers of every single of these players, but, if we assumed that all of them played the same number of games and took the same number of shots, their average regular season %'s would be 45.9 and theirs against Wilt, 42.1.

Which is actually an even bigger difference, because

1) high % shooters like Kareem and Bellamy took a lot more shots than mediocre % shooters like Halbrook or Dierking

2) their r.s FG%'s include games vs Wilt. When taking them out, almost all these numbers will be inflated by at least a few decimals.

[LAZERUSS]

Serious question, what was his team's series record against Russell led teams in the playoffs along with his record against Russell led teams in playoff elimination games?

Serious answer...

TEAM GAME.

How come a pre-Pippen MJ had a losing record, and a 1-9 playoff record? And in his greatest scoring season, his team was swept the first round in a series in which he shot .417 from the field?

How come a pre-Magic Kareem, in his first ten seasons, only went to to two Finals, and only won one ring (and was outplayed by a 34 year-old Wilt who was a year removed from major knee surgery)?

How come Bird lost seven times with HCA?

How come Shaq was swept six times in the post-season?

How come Hakeem was brutalized in the first round in eight of his 15 playoff seasons (and most were blowouts)?


Wilt gets ripped for his TEAM losing to Russell's teams seven times, and losing to a 66-16 Kareem-led team, and to a Reed-led Knicks (and their 4-6 HOFers) twice.

How about Shaq's playoff record against Ostertag of 1-8 in their two series H2H's?

And how come MJ had a 1-3 record against Dumars?

Kareem was losing to the likes of Webster (in the first round), and Sikma (1-4 record in that series), as well as losing to Thurmond (in the first round), Cowens (getting creamed by the red-head in a game seven blowout loss on his home floor no less.) And the real truth...when he faced Moses, he was not only badly outplayed in both series, he led his 54-28 team down the toilet against Malone's 40-42 Rockets, and then when he faced a Moses with equal talent, he was not only slaughtered by Moses, he led his Lakers to a sweeping loss.

Bird? Bad enough having a losing record against Dr. J, but how about a sweeping playoff series loss to Junior Bridgeman? And not only losing to Adrian Dantley, but being held to a .351 FG% in that series, as well. Ad he had a losing record against Michale Cooper, too.

Hakeem?

Not only putting up pure crap numbers in a typical first round loss to Eaton (who also shut down Sampson), or losing to HOFer Parish; but how about losing to the likes of Alton Lister, Mychal Thompson, Oliver Miller, and a slew of no-names that would beat his ass in the first round. Hell, in his '94 title run, he didn't face a legitimate starting center until the Finals.

TEAM GAME.

None other than John Wooden said it best...had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters, and coaches, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

[ClipperRevival]

Serious answer...

TEAM GAME.

How come a pre-Pippen MJ had a losing record, and a 1-9 playoff record? And in his greatest scoring season, his team was swept the first round in a series in which he shot .417 from the field?

How come a pre-Magic Kareem, in his first ten seasons, only went to to two Finals, and only won one ring (and was outplayed by a 34 year-old Wilt who was a year removed from major knee surgery)?

How come Bird lost seven times with HCA?

How come Shaq was swept six times in the post-season?

How come Hakeem was brutalized in the first round in eight of his 15 playoff seasons (and most were blowouts)?


Wilt gets ripped for his TEAM losing to Russell's teams seven times, and losing to a 66-16 Kareem-led team, and to a Reed-led Knicks (and their 4-6 HOFers) twice.

How about Shaq's playoff record against Ostertag of 1-8 in their two series H2H's?

And how come MJ had a 1-3 record against Dumars?

Kareem was losing to the likes of Webster (in the first round), and Sikma (1-4 record in that series), as well as losing to Thurmond (in the first round), Cowens (getting creamed by the red-head in a game seven blowout loss on his home floor no less.) And the real truth...when he faced Moses, he was not only badly outplayed in both series, he led his 54-28 team down the toilet against Malone's 40-42 Rockets, and then when he faced a Moses with equal talent, he was not only slaughtered by Moses, he led his Lakers to a sweeping loss.

Bird? Bad enough having a losing record against Dr. J, but how about a sweeping playoff series loss to Junior Bridgeman? And not only losing to Adrian Dantley, but being held to a .351 FG% in that series, as well. Ad he had a losing record against Michale Cooper, too.

Hakeem?

Not only putting up pure crap numbers in a typical first round loss to Eaton (who also shut down Sampson), or losing to HOFer Parish; but how about losing to the likes of Alton Lister, Mychal Thompson, Oliver Miller, and a slew of no-names that would beat his ass in the first round. Hell, in his '94 title run, he didn't face a legitimate starting center until the Finals.

TEAM GAME.

None other than John Wooden said it best...had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters, and coaches, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

"Your honor, we refuse to answer the question on the basis that answering the question would make my client look like a loser so we will have to go with the "team game" defense. Please refrain from asking any more questions regarding my client's and Mr. Russell's Celtics head to head series records in the playoffs and in game 7s. We will continue to come come back with the "team game" defense. On the contrary, if you were to inquire about my client's individual brilliance, I would be more than happy to oblige with whatever information you need."

[LAZERUSS]

Nellie got in as a coach.

Sanders didn't get in as a player.

Ramsey and KC Jones are definitely not HoF worthy let's call it, without all that big quantity of rings and whatnot they're not making it.

And the best, most impactful player for the vast majority of those 11 titles was Bill Russell, that's why he was the only one winning MVP's (that's 5 of them), and if FMVP was awarded back then he would win most of them too.

Plus, those Celtics were always at the bottom in terms of ranked offenses, and almost always #1 in terms of defense. They were winning more based on their defense than anything else... And guess who was their best, most impactful defender, the GOAT defensive player at that?
And Russell also is one of the GOAT rebounders, one of the all-time best passing bigs and still a nice scorer.

And neither Tom Gola, nor Guy Rodgers should be in the HOF, either. Nor did Wilt play with a HOF Thurmond, either (for one full season, and when Thurmond was a rookie, playing part-time, out of position, and shooting .395 from the field. Hell, Chamberlain was stuck with those two in the '64 Finals, and Thurmond shot .326 from the field, while Rodgers shot his usual .258.

How about Gola in his three post-seasons with Wilt? He shot .412, .271, and even .206. Which was about what he shot without Wilt in his post-season career.

And Baylor? Chamberlain played exactly ONE FULL season with Baylor, and in that post-season, Baylor blew chunks all over the floor.

West? The two played together for five seasons, but only three full time seasons. Overall, West had one great post-season, another very good one (but alas, in a game seven, he was humiliated by Frazier), one below average one, and one awful one. Oh, and he completely missed yet another one.

Still, most every player that Chamberlain played with, had their best seasons alongside Wilt. Players like Goodrich, Greer, Gola (yes, as bad as he was with Wilt, it was still his best season), Hairston, McMillian, Meschery, and others. And amazingly, when Wilt joined the Warriors, Paul Arizin's numbers only declined slightly, despite Chamberlain taking as many as 40 FGAs per game in a season.


As for Russell's squads. Massive edge in talent for most of their ten years in the league together, and no worse than equal talent in two (and Wilt's '68 team was wiped out by injuries, or they would surely have repeated their annihilation of the '67 Celtics.)

Auerbach was always ADDING talent to Russell's teams. In Russell's rookie season, he not only joined with Cousy and Sharman, but he also had the ROY in Heinsohn. The next year they added Sam Jones. By the '62-63 season, they were fielding NINE HOFers, with Clyde Lovellette, who had averaged 20 ppg just the previous season, being their EIGHTH best player.

In the mid-60's they added bailey Howell, who was a 20+ ppg scorer before Russell, and a 20 ppg scorer with Russell.

And not only did they ALWAYS have HOF-laden teams, but they were always the deepest teams in the league. Furthermore, Russell played alongside those guys from between five to twelve seasons.

Even Russell, himself, admitted that Sam Jones saved the Celtic season, SIX times with crucial game-winning shots. And Havlicek was a 20 ppg scorer, who exploded to a near 30 ppg scorer after Russell.

Without being surrounded by players who were capable of MULTIPLE 20+ ppg seasons, Russell's defense would have been an exercise in futility.

[LAZERUSS]

"Your honor, we refuse to answer the question on the basis that answering the question would make my client look like a loser so we will have to go with the "team game" defense. Please refrain from asking any more questions regarding my client's and Mr. Russell's Celtics head to head series records in the playoffs and in game 7s. We will continue to come come back with the "team game" defense. On the contrary, if you were to inquire about my client's individual brilliance, I would be more than happy to oblige with whatever information you need."

Nor did YOU answer MY questions, either.

Here was REALITY. When Chamberlain had a supporting cast the equal of Russell's, and that was healthy...they not only beat Russell's 60-21 Celtics, they demolished them (only a four point loss in Boston in game four prevented a sweep, and then they murdered Boston in game five.)

BTW, answer me this...

When Chamberlain's Sixers were down 3-1 in the '66 ECF's, and facing elimination in game five, Wilt responded with a monster 46-34 game...albeit, in a close loss, and in which his teammates contributed absolutely nothing.

Ok, move to the very next season. Now it was Russell whose team was down 3-1, and facing elimination. Did Russell arise and hang a 46-34 game on Wilt? Hell no. He quietly led his team like sheep to slaughter, with a pathetic FOUR point game (on 2-5 shooting.) How come? How come this Russell who supposedly "owned" Wilt, couldn't even muster a feeble effort, when it was clear that his teammates were neutralized by Wilt's? Oh, and just how equal were those rosters? Chamberlain outscored Russell in that series by a 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg margin...in a series in which Wilt's team outscored Russell's team, per game, by a +10.4 ppg margin!

[LAZERUSS]

These are some great numbers here.
I'm too lazy to look up the specific numbers of every single of these players, but, if we assumed that all of them played the same number of games and took the same number of shots, their average regular season %'s would be 45.9 and theirs against Wilt, 42.1.

Which is actually an even bigger difference, because

1) high % shooters like Kareem and Bellamy took a lot more shots than mediocre % shooters like Halbrook or Dierking

2) their r.s FG%'s include games vs Wilt. When taking them out, almost all these numbers will be inflated by at least a few decimals.

And there were several series in which Chamberlain held his opposing HOF starting centers to about a full 10 percentage point drop, or more, from their regular season FG%'s, including Bellamy, and Kareem TWICE.

Not only that, but in his two series' clinching games against a PEAK Kareem, he outshot Kareem by a combined, .545 (18-33) to .383 (23-60) margin.

[Asukal]

Hahahahaha the insecurity of these wilt stans so hilarious. Wilt isn't GOAT material, no goat candidate has such a weak mental toughness.

[LAZERUSS]

Hahahahaha the insecurity of these wilt stans so hilarious. Wilt isn't GOAT material, no goat candidate has such a weak mental toughness.

Take a look at the RECORD BOOK, which has Wilt's name PLASTERED all over it, and including MANY POST-SEASON records, as well. The same Wilt who ROUTINELY destroyed a Russell who is the greatest "winner" (well, no, actually it is MAGIC) in NBA history. The same Russell who was beaten to a pulp by Chamberlain and his '67 roster, which was finally the equal of Russell's.

Russell and his overwhelming edge in surrounding talent, went 7-1 against Wilt in their eight post-season H2H's, but FOUR of them went to game SEVEN's, and were decided by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. And Wilt either outplayed, or downright obliterated Russell in EVERY one of those eight playoff H2H's.

[Asukal]

Take a look at the RECORD BOOK, which has Wilt's name PLASTERED all over it, and including MANY POST-SEASON records, as well. The same Wilt who ROUTINELY destroyed a Russell who is the greatest "winner" (well, no, actually it is MAGIC) in NBA history. The same Russell who was beaten to a pulp by Chamberlain and his '67 roster, which was finally the equal of Russell's.

Russell and his overwhelming edge in surrounding talent, went 7-1 against Wilt in their eight post-season H2H's, but FOUR of them went to game SEVEN's, and were decided by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. And Wilt either outplayed, or downright obliterated Russell in EVERY one of those eight playoff H2H's.

Yet 11 rings to 2. Wilt dominated paper, Russell dominated the game.

[LAZERUSS]

Yet 11 rings to 2. Wilt dominated paper, Russell dominated the game.

In their ten years in the league together, Chamberlain enjoyed a 7-2 margin in First Team All-NBA selections.

But thanks for playing...

[Asukal]

In their ten years in the league together, Chamberlain enjoyed a 7-2 margin in First Team All-NBA selections.

But thanks for playing...

I'd pick a ring over first team selection any day.

[sportjames23]

Asukal, ClipperRevival and warriorfan are destroying Wilt stans.

[AirFederer]

Oh, and Wilt would manhandle Shaq as a ragdoll/tea cup

[Horatio33]

Love how on of the posts was going on about the Celtics playing a team game which helped Russell, when Chamberlain was the biggest ball hog in league history his first few seasons. Even when he lead the league in assists it was done selfishly.

[AirFederer]

Almost broke his arm


[COLOR="White"]
Nice block, old geezer! Too bad your stans are unbearable[/COLOR]