The notion that Wilt had little help is utterly false.

[ClipperRevival]

The only reason why the Bulls lost in the 1997 finals was because Jordan suffered from flu like symptoms. Oh wait.

[LAZERUSS]

Lol. Ok. Cunningham was out but Greer and Walker played all 7 games and put up 26 and 22 ppg. No player is 100% by the time they play in the finals. But yeah, poor Wilt. It's never his fault. 14 points in game 7 at home.

I'm getting tired of making a fool out of you, but...

Ok, Philly had a 3-1 series lead, and in what could have been the clinching game five, a HOBBLED Chamberlain WIPED the floor with Russell, oustcoring him, 28-8; outshooting him from the floor, 11-21 to 4-10; and outrebounding him, 30-24. BUT, he not only didn't have HOFer Cunningham in that game (nor the ENTIRE series), BOTH Luke Jackson and Wali Jones went down with injuries in the third quarter, and missed the rest of the game.

As for Greer and Walker in game seven... Greer shot 8-25, and Walker shot 8-22. In fact, the entire team, aside from Wilt, collectively shot 33% in that game.

As a side-note...

In game seven of the '69 Finals, Wilt shot 7-8 from the field, and Russell shot 2-7 from the floor. Meanwhile, Russell's TEAMMATES outshot Wilt's TEAMMATES from the field, by a .477 to .360 margin...in a two point Boston win. But, yes, blame WILT for that loss (especially since his incompetent coach kept Chamberlain on the bench in the last five minutes.)

[LAZERUSS]

The only reason why the Bulls lost in the 1997 finals was because Jordan suffered from flu like symptoms. Oh wait.

Remove Pippen from MJ's career and what was his post-season record again?

BTW, Pippen went on to have a winning career without MJ.

BTW, did MJ ever face teams with between FIVE to NINE HOFers?

[CavaliersFTW]

Nobody says he didn't have help. They say he didn't have the right help or enough help to beat Boston. And most of the time that was true.

https://youtu.be/G94iJr8ZbzM?t=59m20s

Listen to his former opponent and teammate Jerry West say exactly that. Or is he no good at evaluating teams and talent?

This has been discussed a million times. It isn't just shit that fans make up. Players, coaches, peers of that era are what started these discussions. Not fans. You can't make a thread 50 years after the fact and try and change the story up.

[ClipperRevival]

I'm getting tired of making a fool out of you, but...

Ok, Philly had a 3-1 series lead, and in what could have been the clinching game five, a HOBBLED Chamberlain WIPED the floor with Russell, oustcoring him, 28-8; outshooting him from the floor, 11-21 to 4-10; and outrebounding him, 30-24. BUT, he not only didn't have HOFer Cunningham in that game (nor the ENTIRE series), BOTH Luke Jackson and Wali Jones went down with injuries in the third quarter, and missed the rest of the game.

As for Greer and Walker in game seven... Greer shot 8-25, and Walker shot 8-22. In fact, the entire team, aside from Wilt, collectively shot 33% in that game.

As a side-note...

In game seven of the '69 Finals, Wilt shot 7-8 from the field, and Russell shot 2-7 from the floor. Meanwhile, Russell's TEAMMATES outshot Wilt's TEAMMATES from the field, by a .477 to .360 margin...in a two point Boston win. But, yes, blame WILT for that loss (especially since his incompetent coach kept Chamberlain on the bench in the last five minutes.)

So they can't clinch it in game 5. Why couldn't they finish them off in games 6 and 7? Right, always someone else's fault huh?

Look man. I really have nothing against Wilt personally. I really don't. However, I do have a problem with people like you who distort reality. You perceive Wilt as this poor victim time and time again and how circumstances outside of himself always prevented him from coming through when it mattered most. And you bombard us with empty stats time and time again as if that alone proves greatness. But I hold clutchness and ability to come up big in big games a lot. You obviously don't. If you did, you can't be a Wilt fan.

[ClipperRevival]

Remove Pippen from MJ's career and what was his post-season record again?

BTW, Pippen went on to have a winning career without MJ.

BTW, did MJ ever face teams with between FIVE to NINE HOFers?

6/6. 6 fmvps. Highest scoring average ever in regular season and playoffs history. Higher PER ever both regular season and playoffs. He came, he saw, he conquered.

[LAZERUSS]

Nobody says he didn't have help. They say he didn't have the right help or enough help to beat Boston. And most of the time that was true.

https://youtu.be/G94iJr8ZbzM?t=59m20s

Listen to his former opponent and teammate Jerry West say exactly that. Or is he no good at evaluating teams and talent?

This has been discussed a million times. It isn't just shit that fans make up. Players, coaches, peers of that era are what started these discussions. Not fans. You can't make a thread 50 years after the fact and try and change the story up.

We can play the "quote" game until the cows come home...

More quotes from Wilt's peers...

http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jerry West [/COLOR]in 1999:


Quote:

"He was the most unbelievable center to ever play the game in terms of domination and intimidation. There's no one that's ever played the game better than Wilt Chamberlain. This was a man for all ages."


or this ...from Bill Russell



Quote:

"Nobody seems to appreciate what an incredible player Wilt was," Russell said at 1997 All-Star Game when the league named and honored its 50 greatest players. "He was the best player of all time because he dominated the floor like nobody else ever could. To be that big and that athletic was special."

or this from Kareem...



Quote:

"Chamberlain played the game the same way Russell did, except he scored so much more. But his teams had to get more points from him. He'd score 45 points and his teams would still lose."

and also from Kareem...



Quote:

"Wilt had to fight people's dissatisfaction that his teams didn't win. There he was, this great dominating player, and his teams didn't win championships. Well, Wilt wasn't playing for the right team. As an individual, he was in a class by himself, but his teammates--they were OK, but not the supporting cast Russell had."


and still more from Kareem...



Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.



Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

And how about Rick Barry?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo

BTW, there are TWO interviews in the above with Barry. One in the 70's, and the other a couple of years ago. And he STILL claims that Wilt was the GOAT.

Next...

[LAZERUSS]

1966 - Blame anyone but Wilt.
1968 - What are you talking about? Greer averaged 26.1 ppg and Walker averaged 22.1 ppg in the finals. Only Cunningham was out.
1969 - Blame anyone but Wilt.
1970 - Blame anyone but Wilt.

That about sum it up?

'66 ECF's:
Wilt averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 from the field.
Wilt's TEAMMATES collectively shot ...get this... .352 from the field!

'68 ECF's:
Wilt with a 22-25-7 series...with ALL seven games played with essentially the same injury that reduced Reed to a statue in the last three games of the '70 Finals. Newspaper recaps had Wilt NOTICEABLY LIMPING throughout the series. And Russell commented: "A lessor man would not have played", which was essentially saying that NO ONE ELSE would have played under the same circumstances. And in a game seven, four point loss,...Wilt's teammates collectively shot .333 from the field.

'69 Finals:
Worst series of Wilt's career, and he deserved PARTIAL blame, albeit, it was his COACH who shackled him in that series. And, as always, Chamberlain outplayed Russell, and just crushed him in the game seven loss. BTW, Baylor had games of 2-14, 4-18, and 8-22 from the field in three losses. In the game seven loss, Wilt shot .875 from the field, Russell shot .286 from the field, and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's by a .477 to .360 margin.

'70 Finals:
Chamberlain was only FOUR MONTHS removed from MAJOR KNEE SURGERY. The same surgery that took Baylor a year-and-a-half to semi recover from.
And, in a must win game six, Chamberlain hung a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting), and then in the must-win game seven, a 21-24 game (on 10-16 shooting from the field.) For the series, Wilt put up the ONLY 20-20 .600+ FG% series in Finals history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%)...and all accomplished on basically ONE LEG.

BTW, his teammate, Jerry West, was just abused by Walt Frazier in that game seven loss.

[LAZERUSS]

So they can't clinch it in game 5. Why couldn't they finish them off in games 6 and 7? Right, always someone else's fault huh?

Look man. I really have nothing against Wilt personally. I really don't. However, I do have a problem with people like you who distort reality. You perceive Wilt as this poor victim time and time again and how circumstances outside of himself always prevented him from coming through when it mattered most. And you bombard us with empty stats time and time again as if that alone proves greatness. But I hold clutchness and ability to come up big in big games a lot. You obviously don't. If you did, you can't be a Wilt fan.

Wilt is arguably the GOAT "Big Game" player in NBA post-season history.

Don't believe me? How about these...

23 Elimination Games...

12-11 record.

[COLOR="DarkRed"]31.1 ppg[/COLOR]
26.4 rpg
.540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 in that same span.)

3 50+ point Games in those 23 games
5 40+ point games in those 23 games
Games of 53-22, 50-35, 50-35, 46-34, and 45-27 (In a Finals Game)

BTW, Lebron is the career leader in ppg in "must-win" playoff games at 31.8 ppg, MJ is next at 31.3 ppg, and guess is who is third...none other that your "choker" Wilt. Oh, and Chamberlain has the ONLY THREE 50+ must-win playoff games by a GOAT candidate in NBA history.

Absolutely crushed his opposing centers in those elimination games, as well.


Of course there were his "Elimination" and "Clinching" games...37 of them:

Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]29.5 ppg[/COLOR]

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

Yep...Wilt wasn't a "Big Game" player was he?

Again, please do some actual RESEARCH before you post your typical nonsense.

[LAZERUSS]

How about Wilt's post-season DEFENSE?

Wilt's post-season FG% allowed:

59-60:

Kerr regular season FG% against the league: .392
Kerr against Wilt in the playoffs: .294

Dierking regular season FG%: .365
Dierking vs Wilt in the post-season: .333

Russell regular season: .467
Russell vs. Wilt in the post-season: .446


60-61:

Kerr regular season: .397
Kerr vs Wilt: .321

Halbrook regular season: .335
Halbrook vs Wilt: .387


61-62:

Kerr regular season: .443
Kerr vs. Wilt: .376

Russell regular season: .457
Russell vs Wilt: .399


63-64:

Beaty regular season: .444
Beaty vs. Wilt: .520

Russell regular season: .433
Russell vs. Wilt: .386


64-65:

Embry regular season: .456
Embry vs Wilt: .438

Russell regular season: .438
Russell vs. Wilt: .446


65-66:

Russell regular season: .415
Russell vs. Wilt: .424


66-67:

Dierking regular season: .399
Dierking vs Wilt: .427

Russell regular season: .454
Russell vs. Wilt: .358

Thurmond regular season: .437
Thurmond vs. Wilt: .343


67-68:

Bellamy regular season: .541
Bellamy vs. Wilt: .421

Russell regular season: .425
Russell vs. Wilt: .440


68-69:

Thurmond regular season: .410
Thurmond vs Wilt: .392

Beaty regular season: .470
Beaty vs. Wilt: .383

Russell regular season: .433
Russell vs. Wilt: .397


69-70:

Walk regular season: .470
Walk vs Wilt: .395

Fox regular season: .524
Fox vs Wilt: .362

Bellamy regular season: .523
Bellamy vs Wilt: .456

Reed regular season: .507
Reed vs Wilt: .483


70-71:

Boerwinkle regular season: .485
Boerwinkle vs Wilt: .463

Fox regular season: .458
Fox vs Wilt: .434

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Kareem regular season: .577
Kareem vs Wilt[/COLOR]: .481


71-72:

Ray regular season: .499
Ray vs Wilt: .529

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Kareem regular season: .574
Kareem vs Wilt: .457[/COLOR]

Lucas regular season: .512
Lucas vs Wilt: .500


72-73:

Awtry regular season: .480
Awtry vs Wilt: .542

Thurmond regular season: .446
Thurmond vs Wilt: .373

Reed regular season: .474
Reed vs Wilt: .493

[TheMan]

Wilt has a history of choking, this is a well known fact by everyone but Wilt stans. In other news, water is still wet...

[AceManIII]

Wilt, in his own autobiography, stated Bill Russell had more will to win than himself...ain't no way he's the most clutch player.

[ClipperRevival]

'66 ECF's:
Wilt averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 from the field.
Wilt's TEAMMATES collectively shot ...get this... .352 from the field!

'68 ECF's:
Wilt with a 22-25-7 series...with ALL seven games played with essentially the same injury that reduced Reed to a statue in the last three games of the '70 Finals. Newspaper recaps had Wilt NOTICEABLY LIMPING throughout the series. And Russell commented: "A lessor man would not have played", which was essentially saying that NO ONE ELSE would have played under the same circumstances. And in a game seven, four point loss,...Wilt's teammates collectively shot .333 from the field.

'69 Finals:
Worst series of Wilt's career, and he deserved PARTIAL blame, albeit, it was his COACH who shackled him in that series. And, as always, Chamberlain outplayed Russell, and just crushed him in the game seven loss. BTW, Baylor had games of 2-14, 4-18, and 8-22 from the field in three losses. In the game seven loss, Wilt shot .875 from the field, Russell shot .286 from the field, and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's by a .477 to .360 margin.

'70 Finals:
Chamberlain was only FOUR MONTHS removed from MAJOR KNEE SURGERY. The same surgery that took Baylor a year-and-a-half to semi recover from.
And, in a must win game six, Chamberlain hung a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting), and then in the must-win game seven, a 21-24 game (on 10-16 shooting from the field.) For the series, Wilt put up the ONLY 20-20 .600+ FG% series in Finals history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%)...and all accomplished on basically ONE LEG.

BTW, his teammate, Jerry West, was just abused by Walt Frazier in that game seven loss.

Translation. It wasn't Wilt's fault.

[ClipperRevival]

Wilt is arguably the GOAT "Big Game" player in NBA post-season history.

Don't believe me? How about these...



Yep...Wilt wasn't a "Big Game" player was he?

Again, please do some actual RESEARCH before you post your typical nonsense.

Serious question, what was his team's series record against Russell led teams in the playoffs along with his record against Russell led teams in playoff elimination games?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Baily Howell - HOF
Tom Sanders - HOF
Don Nelson - HOF
KC Jones = HOF
Frank Ramsay = HOF

Nellie got in as a coach.

Sanders didn't get in as a player.

Ramsey and KC Jones are definitely not HoF worthy let's call it, without all that big quantity of rings and whatnot they're not making it.

And the best, most impactful player for the vast majority of those 11 titles was Bill Russell, that's why he was the only one winning MVP's (that's 5 of them), and if FMVP was awarded back then he would win most of them too.

Plus, those Celtics were always at the bottom in terms of ranked offenses, and almost always #1 in terms of defense. They were winning more based on their defense than anything else... And guess who was their best, most impactful defender, the GOAT defensive player at that?
And Russell also is one of the GOAT rebounders, one of the all-time best passing bigs and still a nice scorer.