To start a franchise with: Kobe/KG vs. LeBron/Dirk

[catch24]

While I would take Kobe/KG too, at you for acting like it's not close.

Funny thing is the example he gave would be a larger gap in MJ/Duncan's favor.

[RRR3]

Funny thing is the example he gave would be a larger gap in MJ/Duncan's favor.

Well that wouldn't even be a debate, now would it?

[creepingdeath]

Meh, bait thread. I don't even care about the discussion. Dirk = champion.

Outta here.

[with malice]

You "seem" capable as well. Why throw things out like Kobe needed to play "out of his mind" in 08 to win? We both know that is a load of garbage.

Ummm... ease up on the derision wouldja? But it's cool - you wanna go that way - I'll keep it in mind for future discussion. Thanks.

And "play out of his mind" is only as much a load of garbage as "he played awful". I stated that the truth was probably somewhere between the two. You remained adamant on the "awful". Semantics.

[DMAVS41]

Ummm... ease up on the derision wouldja? But it's cool - you wanna go that way - I'll keep it in mind for future discussion. Thanks.

And "play out of his mind" is only as much a load of garbage as "he played awful". I stated that the truth was probably somewhere between the two. You remained adamant on the "awful". Semantics.

Its not semantics. Kobe Bryant is one of the best players of all time. His standards are very high. Why are the standards so low for him for the 08 series? You act like he's Joe Johnson or something. It was the freaking NBA finals and greatness is expected by the great. Doesn't mean every player that plays in the finals has to play great, but if you lose and don't play great...its on you.

Again, Kobe played 3 stinkers in 6 games. In 2 of the stinkers, the games were winnable in the 4th. One of them his team had a 24 point lead. Based on the greatness of Kobe Bryant.....I view him playing as poorly as he did in the 08 finals a severe letdown. He was playing some of the best ball of his career going into the series.

And all I said was that Kobe needed to play "well"...in order to win that series. You said he needed to play out of his mind. I just find stuff like this interesting. Most people here consider Kobe better than Wade. But when Wade tears up the Celtics in 10....its a bunch of "meh"....but then when Kobe plays much much worse....his fans still claim he played "well".

Same thing with the Pistons for those two. So I get confused. If Kobe is definitely better than Wade...why are the expectations for Kobe's level of play lower since about the 05 season. Doesn't make sense to me.

You have to understand that players are graded on a curve. Kobe is graded on a curve that relates to the company he's in. People rank him with West, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, and Bird. Not Joe Johnson or whomever his stans want to the curve to be set on.

[kaiiu]

I have em ranked in this order career wise
Kobe
Dirk
KG
'Brick

Dirk is the 2nd best of the group but his partner is a weak link

[DMAVS41]

I have em ranked in this order career wise
Kobe
Dirk
KG
'Brick

Dirk is the 2nd best of the group but his partner is a weak link

And I just don't think Lebron fits all that well around Dirk. The tough question is whether or not playing with a team player like Dirk helps Lebron improve his ability to play team ball and not be a one man show.

Lebron's big flaws are his off ball movement and shooting in my opinion. Maybe playing with Dirk forces Lebron to adapt his game and learn those things.

But the players that we know them to be. Its Kobe and KG for me. Although, I do think Lebron and Dirk would be about as unstoppable late in games as any combo ever has been. Those pick and rolls would just be impossible to stop with Dirk either popping to the three point line to space the defense, Dirk getting a switch with a smaller player, Lebron getting a switch with a big, and Lebron just attacking the open lanes and getting to the ft line or easy baskets. I honestly don't think that could ever be stopped.

That makes it closer for me than most, but I can't overlook the other negatives and the great fit of Kobe and KG.

[kaiiu]

Dirk would prolly teach him how to shoot doe. Theres nothing that Lebrons game would do to elevate Dirks game at all. Dirk already aint a great rebounder and now he would have a player coming in and stealing his boards. I honestly dont see how Dirk would average 4 or 5 rebounds playing next to him. Dirk is best as a iso player and how can he iso if 'Brick is holdin the ball for 20 seconds. James is only the 3rd best passer Dirk would have played wit to

[with malice]

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Damn dude... but ok. And I think you're still stretching it on calling those games "stinkers". I'd call game 6 a stinker, and games 1/4 "not up to par". Before you go off on that: yes, there is a difference.
And don't tell me how I assess players. You simply don't know.

By your own standards, I guess it'd be fair to say that Dirk was awful in the 2007 playoffs too, huh?

[Doranku]

FG% out of a scorer like Kobe is almost always the most important. But I wonder why you ignore Kobe's inept rebounding in some of those finals games....and then turn around and praise him for his rebounding in game 7 of 10.

Isn't getting only 3 boards in 42 minutes pretty bad...especially when your team is getting killed on the glass and your counterpart (ray allen) gets 5 more boards? I personally don't care all that much, but it just seems inconsistent. You say all I care about is fg%, but then turn around and don't mention Kobe's poor rebounding and 4 turnovers in game 1.

And sorry, Kobe was just bad in game 4. No excuses. He was the leader of a team that blew a 24 point lead in the finals....that is bad enough, but he played poorly on top.

And again. So many excuses. Yet you turn around and bring Dirk into this. The two series that Dirk gets hammered for are funny to me. You talk about James Posey.....and act like Kobe is free from blame for everything...fine.

Then why should Dirk be blamed for Baron Davis and Dwayne Wade destroying the Mavs? He doesn't play guard. I just find it funny. Those two series were largely lost because the Mavs perimeter defense was beyond bad. Its no more Dirk's job to stop Davis or Wade than it was Kobe's job to stop KG. Funny how Gasol gets hammered for 08 but you rarely here about anybody else on the Mavs getting blamed for all the perimeter players going nuts in 06 and 07.

I haven't mentioned Dirk one time in this thread, what are you talking about?

I'm not making excuses, I've said plenty of times before that if Kobe had played like he did against the Western Conference LA could've and probably would've won the series. And Kobe was downright putrid in Game 1. Absolutely awful, LA had a legitimate chance to steal the first game and he blew it big time.

However, the rest of the series I don't think he played "horrible" by any stretch. His shooting numbers were bad in game 4, sure. But he played like the best player in the league in the 4th quarter. His teammates didn't show up in the second half, ESPECIALLY the bench who were the main reasons that LA blew their huge lead in the first place.

Game 6, Kobe came out firing and kept his team in the game during the first quarter. After that? No one showed up. Absolutely no one. A complete and utter meltdown.

Games 4 and 6 were both collective meltdowns. While Kobe should receive some of the blame, it's unfair to place all of the blame on him because he really didn't play that poorly outside of Game 1.

Also, give credit to the Celtics defense. They had a brilliant game plan for stopping Kobe and they did about as much as you can ask for in stopping a player of his caliber.

Bottom line, you're making it seem like he played awful all series when that simply isn't true. Could he have played better? Sure, and he probably should have. But he certainly wasn't the only reason why they lost that series.

[DMAVS41]

Damn dude... but ok. And I think you're still stretching it on calling those games "stinkers". I'd call game 6 a stinker, and games 1/4 "not up to par". Before you go off on that: yes, there is a difference.
And don't tell me how I assess players. You simply don't know.

By your own standards, I guess it'd be fair to say that Dirk was awful in the 2007 playoffs too, huh?

Absolutely Dirk was awful in 07. He's an all time great and his standards are much higher than that. He was worse than awful.

[DMAVS41]

I haven't mentioned Dirk one time in this thread, what are you talking about?

I'm not making excuses, I've said plenty of times before that if Kobe had played like he did against the Western Conference LA could've and probably would've won the series. And Kobe was downright putrid in Game 1. Absolutely awful, LA had a legitimate chance to steal the first game and he blew it big time.

However, the rest of the series I don't think he played "horrible" by any stretch. His shooting numbers were bad in game 4, sure. But he played like the best player in the league in the 4th quarter. His teammates didn't show up in the second half, ESPECIALLY the bench who were the main reasons that LA blew their huge lead in the first place.

Game 6, Kobe came out firing and kept his team in the game during the first quarter. After that? No one showed up. Absolutely no one. A complete and utter meltdown.

Games 4 and 6 were both collective meltdowns. While Kobe should receive some of the blame, it's unfair to place all of the blame on him because he really didn't play that poorly outside of Game 1.

Also, give credit to the Celtics defense. They had a brilliant game plan for stopping Kobe and they did about as much as you can ask for in stopping a player of his caliber.

Bottom line, you're making it seem like he played awful all series when that simply isn't true. Could he have played better? Sure, and he probably should have. But he certainly wasn't the only reason why they lost that series.

No player is ever the sole reason why a team wins or loses. I've never said that. I simply was addressing the revisionist history that most Kobe stans fall victim to. Kobe did not have to play "out of his mind" for the Lakers to win. It wouldn't have been a monumental upset or anything like that. Series like that are when the greats that Kobe is compared to step up and play great. But Kobe didn't even need to play great...he just needed to play well.

If you aren't one of them....then pay no attention. I just find that a lot of people act like that series was completely one sided. It simply wasn't. Game 6 skews a lot of the views on the series. Same thing with the Mavs this year. Its like getting blown out in an elimination game is somehow a good thing....LOL

[with malice]

Kobe did not have to play "out of his mind" for the Lakers to win. It wouldn't have been a monumental upset or anything like that. Series like that are when the greats that Kobe is compared to step up and play great. But Kobe didn't even need to play great...he just needed to play well.

If you aren't one of them....then pay no attention. I just find that a lot of people act like that series was completely one sided. It simply wasn't. Game 6 skews a lot of the views on the series. Same thing with the Mavs this year. Its like getting blown out in an elimination game is somehow a good thing....LOL

And neither, was Kobe completely awful. It's just something the anti-kobe-stans like to smugly point to.

That said, I agree with the bolded part.