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It is what it is
Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
True but then I also shouldn't forget Dallas Mavs, 7 footer who makes a living off high and low-post fadeaways on offese and they were anchored by a 7 foot defensive big man on he other end in Tyson Chandler.
"Just" rim protectors and rebounders - isn't Dirk making a career out of the opposite of that? And as far as defensive/reounding bigs pretty sure you can't get the ball unless you get the rebound. Pretty sure protecting the rim means stopping the other team from scoring points. Crucial aspects of basketball however non-glorious they might be to ESPN and twitter audiences compared to hitting a 3 or executing a crossover.
Dirk is a big who plays small though, he does most of his damage from the outside. KG also played like this. What I'm saying is that the traditional big man style of play (low post scoring like most of the old bigs) is a thing of the past.
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Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Originally Posted by nycelt84
John Havlicek had a career record of 8-0 in the NBA Finals and was the best player on the '68, 69, 74 and 76 championship Celtics teams. Might have also been the best on the '66 team.
With all the emphasis on Jordan's 6-0 record, is it possible that Havlicek might be underrated and should be mentioned in the same regard as guys like Jordan due to his sterling Finals record?
Hondo is 3rd GOAT SG after Jordan and Manu. Fact.
But yeah he's underrated due to his skin color.
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Out here
Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Hondo is one of the most underrated professional athletes in sports history, not just the NBA.
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NBA Legend
Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Originally Posted by Pushxx
Hondo is one of the most underrated professional athletes in sports history, not just the NBA.
I think the reason behind it is like someone pointed out, he's more like a Scottie Pippen in terms of impact on his teams and the league than a Michael Jordan most of his career.
This is somewhat true IMO. He wasn't the best shooting guard or forward in the era most any year that he played. Most people outside of perhaps real die hard Celtics fans, or teammates of the time would likely say Baylor, Rick Barry, Julius Erving, Jerry West, Bob Pettit, Oscar Robertson etc were better forwards/guards. Hondo did make 4 All-NBA first-teams from 1971-74 but that's likely just because Barry and Dr. J were in the other league.
Still... his resume is rock solid. Even if he wasn't the "best" cut and dry forward of his time at any given point, he was always in the top small handful, making all-NBA second team pretty much any season he didn't make first team. And he made a career out of playing on both ends.
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Good High School Starter
Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
I think the reason behind it is like someone pointed out, he's more like a Scottie Pippen in terms of impact on his teams and the league than a Michael Jordan most of his career.
This is somewhat true IMO. He wasn't the best shooting guard or forward in the era most any year that he played. Most people outside of perhaps real die hard Celtics fans, or teammates of the time would likely say Baylor, Rick Barry, Julius Erving, Jerry West, Bob Pettit, Oscar Robertson etc were better forwards/guards. Hondo did make 4 All-NBA first-teams from 1971-74 but that's likely just because Barry and Dr. J were in the other league.
Still... his resume is rock solid. Even if he wasn't the "best" cut and dry forward of his time at any given point, he was always in the top small handful, making all-NBA second team pretty much any season he didn't make first team. And he made a career out of playing on both ends.
Except Pippen wasn't the best player on 4 championship teams. Nor did Pippen become the best player on his team while a GOAT level teammate was active in the same way Havlicek surpassed a still active Bill Russell.
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Out here
Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Originally Posted by nycelt84
Except Pippen wasn't the best player on 4 championship teams. Nor did Pippen become the best player on his team while a GOAT level teammate was active in the same way Havlicek surpassed a still active Bill Russell.
Not to to mention Hondo played a sacrificial style of basketball for his teams...he was the king of intangibles and cared more about winning than anything else he could do on the court.
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Re: John Havlicek 8-0
The "death" of the bigman is obviously due to two factors... 3p line and lack of actual training for big men growing up.
Big men just don't want to be that guy down low that bulldoze people. Everyone wants to be flashy and shoot 3s.
However, just like in nearly all facets of life, supply/demand will win out. Any great big would have MURDERED the Warriors. All these "small ball" teams will force big men to get sick and tired of sitting down, and they will train and work and work and in 5-10 years will have some NASTY bigs entering the league.
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Out here
Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Originally Posted by kshutts1
The "death" of the bigman is obviously due to two factors... 3p line and lack of actual training for big men growing up.
Big men just don't want to be that guy down low that bulldoze people. Everyone wants to be flashy and shoot 3s.
However, just like in nearly all facets of life, supply/demand will win out. Any great big would have MURDERED the Warriors. All these "small ball" teams will force big men to get sick and tired of sitting down, and they will train and work and work and in 5-10 years will have some NASTY bigs entering the league.
Wrong thread, my dude.
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Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Originally Posted by HOoopCityJones
Lebron said something similar last night.
NO he didnt bro, KNOCK IT OFF
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Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Originally Posted by Pushxx
Wrong thread, my dude.
Not wrong thread, just a couple pages late without a quoted text to make my response fall in place.
There were discussions about it being a little man league, big men aren't useful, etc.
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... on a leash
Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Originally Posted by STATUTORY
height isn't the only salient attribute that matters doe
learned another word straight outta statutory's vocabulary
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Consensus Top 20-30 AT
Re: John Havlicek 8-0
If people take the winning percentage in the Finals stuff seriously then how can Hondo not be top 10 all-time? It is a case of moving goal posts to invoke Finals winning percentages as the be all end all and then not even have Hondo in your top 20.
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Good High School Starter
Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
If people take the winning percentage in the Finals stuff seriously then how can Hondo not be top 10 all-time? It is a case of moving goal posts to invoke Finals winning percentages as the be all end all and then not even have Hondo in your top 20.
Captures exactly why I made this thread. It's ridiculous seeing people always post nonsense about Jordan being 6-0 as though that alone makes the greatest to ever play the game, when another legend has an even better Finals record while being undefeated as well.
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College star
Re: John Havlicek 8-0
Originally Posted by nycelt84
Captures exactly why I made this thread. It's ridiculous seeing people always post nonsense about Jordan being 6-0 as though that alone makes the greatest to ever play the game, when another legend has an even better Finals record while being undefeated as well.
Tbh, Hondo didn't have as good of a peak as someone like Jordan, not all that close even if he still had a great one... Wasn't even ever top3 in MVP voting, too.
Plus, he has 8 rings but you can't say that he was the (clear-cut) best player and leader for more than 3 of them - not even 50% imo... Again, that's different for someone like Jordan.
^With that said though, I got Hondo at 4th on my all-time greatest SF's list when considering everything. I also have him as a top20 all-time player.
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2nd Greatest Player
Re: John Havlicek 8-0
He's definitely an underrated player. The greatest player to never win the NBA MVP Award.
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