Derrick Rose MVP story: Dragged awful group of DLeague scrubs by himself to 60 wins

[DMAVS41]

The guy is on a hamster wheel of thoughts and thinks he's getting traction. And really believes he's not on the wheel.

Dude...you repeat the same shit over and over again. And the sick thing is...you have been proven wrong.

At least I'm right. I hate having to repeat it constantly, but you refuse to acknowledge reality.

You are debating facts like the efficiency of the two players. Dirk's warriors series was factually more efficient than Rose's playoff averages for his career.

That is disgusting...

[tpols]

uhhhh...you don't make sense. you rail on Boozer for being total shit...then say they would lose a major advantage with Dirk instead of Boozer....what?

Take Boozer off the Bulls and replace him with Dirk and they get better by a ton.

Who is the guard equivalent of Boozer? An 18/10/3 regular season player and a 13/10/2 player in the playoffs. Conley is right at that stuff, but it doesn't have to be him. Tell me which pg roughly has a similar value?

Like I said...it doesn't really matter. That team has everything you could ever want around Dirk without getting into super stacked teams that guys like Kobe have played on with star power, great coaching, and solid on/off performance.

But please...take your pick of pg.

They don't get better against miami.. Overall sure but not in that matchup.

Do you not understand that the ONLY reason the bulls and indy gave miami trouble was they destroyed them on the offensive glass? Do you not realize that with dirk playing a ton of minutes at PF that the bulls would be attacking the glass with only half their frontcourt? They wouldn't be able to take advantage of Miami only real weakness


They'd have to count on an epic Lebron James chokejob... again.

[Pointguard]

Dude...you repeat the same shit over and over again. And the sick thing is...you have been proven wrong.

At least I'm right. I hate having to repeat it constantly, but you refuse to acknowledge reality.

You are debating facts like the efficiency of the two players. Dirk's warriors series was factually more efficient than Rose's playoff averages for his career.

That is disgusting...

I just layed out the craziness of this nonsense. And you do like you always do. Repeat without counter or bring in something totally irrelevant. I already detailed it. And you are still stuck in the mud.

oh wait, let me guess TS% again and again and again. Dirk shot horribly against the worse defensive team in the league. Of course Dirk's TS% is high because the only thing better than the league's worse defense are freebies at the line. And Derrick Rose came into the league as a rookie and had better TS% in the playoffs than Dirk did against the Warriors. I can't believe your couch potatoe, over using stat geek, TS freak self missed that.

[DMAVS41]

I just layed out the craziness of this nonsense. And you do like you always do. Repeat without counter or bring in something totally irrelevant. I already detailed it. And you are still stuck in the mud.

oh wait, let me guess TS% again and again and again. Dirk shot horribly against the worse defensive team in the league. Of course Dirk's TS% is high because the only thing better than the league's worse defense are freebies at the line. And Derrick Rose came into the league as a rookie and had better TS% in the playoffs than Dirk did against the Warriors. I can't believe your couch potatoe, over using stat geek, TS freak self missed that.

Part of being a great scorer is getting to the ft line and making them. I'm sorry if you don't think that is true.

[DMAVS41]

Tpols...take a look at this;

Take a look at how Dirk's teams have done without him;

01 minus 9.4
02 minus 1.2
03 minus 7.8
04 minus .7
05 minus 4.1
06 plus .2
07 minus .7
08 minus 3.1
09 minus 2.1
10 minus 4.2
11 minus 5.5
12 minus 7
13 minus 1.2
14 minus 2.9

Now, the above is how the Mavs performed with Dirk on the bench per 100 possessions. Dirk has played 36 minutes per game for his career...so he's off the court for 25% of the minutes the team plays...and in those minutes. Dirk has had 1 team in his entire career that didn't either lose points off a lead or add to a deficit. That is disgustingly bad. Made even worse by the fact that he never had real star power in his career at any point...and certainly never did post 2003. So no star help or all nba help...and a shit bench/2nd unit that every year of his ****ing career had a negative point differential...again point differential is paramount to winning games.

And then we take a look at Rose;

09 plus 6
10 minus 4.7
11 plus 6.1
12 plus 8.7
14 plus 1.5

Jesus christ...unreal. No wonder the 12 Bulls were so good....Rose goes to the bench and the ****ing rape teams by 8.7 points per 100 possessions. LOL

Tpols...I know you hate me, but don't let your hate turn you into a moron. I know you are smart enough to understand just how valuable it is for a star player to go to the bench and see his 2nd unit come in and increase the lead or cut a deficit. Don't lose your mind hating me.

Kobe's teams since 01 have a minus 2 differential. You really don't think if his teams had a plus 3.5 like Rose that his regular season win percentage wouldn't be dramatically different? That is a 5.5 swing per 100 possessions!!!! In 06 the Lakers bench was -8. If they were plus 6.1...Kobe wins like 60 games or more! Even if his shit starting unit had stayed the same...

[Pointguard]

Part of being a great scorer is getting to the ft line and making them. I'm sorry if you don't think that is true.

Never said it wasn't. I just said its the easiest part of the game and the only thing easier than scoring on the worse defensive team in the league for most players. But what about the other points??? That you missed your TS% calculations. That's your lifeline.

You also incorrectly quoted me in a response to somebody else above.

[DMAVS41]

Never said it wasn't. I just said its the easiest part of the game and the only thing easier than scoring on the worse defensive team in the league for most players. But what about the other points??? That you missed your TS% calculations. That's your lifeline.

You also incorrectly quoted me in a response to somebody else above.

TS takes everything into account.

Dirk also has a higher efg%...which accounts for 3's being worth more, but i'm sure you are against that.

The point is simple. Dirk's worst series you said...was actually more efficient overall than Rose's playoff career averages. Sorry...

I mean, I'd get it if Rose was efficient from the field, but he's at 42.5% fg and 25.6% from 3 for his career in the playoffs. That is ****ing awful....

[DMAVS41]

They don't get better against miami.. Overall sure but not in that matchup.

Do you not understand that the ONLY reason the bulls and indy gave miami trouble was they destroyed them on the offensive glass? Do you not realize that with dirk playing a ton of minutes at PF that the bulls would be attacking the glass with only half their frontcourt? They wouldn't be able to take advantage of Miami only real weakness


They'd have to count on an epic Lebron James chokejob... again.

That was the only way anyone was going to beat Miami though...so I don't see the relevance.

Like I said before...I didn't hate on Rose for losing...I hated on him for playing horrid.

Also, I don't think the Bulls would be better off with Rose/Boozer vs Conley/Dirk. I like that team a lot more and actually give that Conley/Dirk Bulls team a better chance of beating the Heat than the 11 Mavs assuming Lebron doesn't choke like you said.

[Pointguard]

TS takes everything into account.

Dirk also has a higher efg%...which accounts for 3's being worth more, but i'm sure you are against that.

The point is simple. Dirk's worst series you said...was actually more efficient overall than Rose's playoff career averages. Sorry...

I mean, I'd get it if Rose was efficient from the field, but he's at 42.5% fg and 25.6% from 3 for his career in the playoffs. That is ****ing awful....

Aweful is when you have to depend on FT shooting to save face.

Rose was the best player on his team in almost all of his playoff series while playing a little above their projection. Efficiency means triple when you have nothing else going on. Most of the top big men in the history of the game suffer in TS% as compared to FG%

That is all Dirk has claims to is TS%. He's a one dimensional player that visits other parts of the game. He would be a useless, an absolute nobody player if he wasn't efficient in some way. He wouldn't be in the league. But to be honest he shoots bad for a 7 footer from the field. Rose has shot better than him from the field a bit too much if you ask me. Heck if you ask anybody. Dirk is suppose to have some advantage because he definitely isn't good at the rest of the game, a majority of the time. It would be just totally crazy if Rose was more efficient too. Rose could win MVP without ts% efg%. Dirk has no chance if he doesn't have that.

[DMAVS41]

He was the best player on his team in most of his playoff series. Efficiency means triple when you have nothing else going on. Most of the top big men in the history of the game suffer in TS%.

That is all Dirk has claims to is TS%. He's a one dimensional player that visits other parts of the game. He would be a useless, an absolute nobody player if he wasn't efficient. He wouldn't be in the league. But to be honest he shoots bad for a 7 footer from the field. Rose has shot better than him from the field a bit too much if you ask me. Heck if you ask anybody. Dirk is suppose to have some advantage because he definitely isn't good at the rest of the game, a majority of the time. It would be just totally crazy if Rose was more efficient too.

Another terrible post. Dirk would still be awesome even if he was a 26/10/3 54% TS player for his career in the playoffs...

He just wouldn't be all time great like top 20 all time.

TS% is hugely important. It's your fg%, 3pt%, and ft% combined.

You fail hugely in 2 ways;

1. You don't realize Dirk brings a lot more to the table. You ignore the impact of having a 7 foot sharp shooter that has to be doubled without the ball on pick and pops....and you discount his great defensive rebounding as well. You discount everything about his game. Why? Because it's you that doesn't understand the game. You think a player has to break down a defense of the dribble to make players better...LOL

But again...the impact is there. You just choose to ignore reality.

With Dirk on the court in the regular season. His teams have a plus 7.6 scoring differential.

With Rose on the court in the regular season. His teams have a plus 3.1 scoring differential.

How is that possible if Rose is better and impacts the game more???? You'll argue help...but then we look at the teams without them.

Dirk's team is minus 3.6 scoring differential.
Rose's team is plus 3.4 scoring differential.

And since we are talking the regular season when this on/off stuff matters much more because bench play matters....none of what you say is in line with reality.

If Dirk really was this low impact player compared to Rose...you'd never see the results we've seen.

You have been utterly destroyed. We have proven that the real reason the Bulls won so many games in 11 vs other star players was that elite bench play...literally what we've always said...now we just have the actual data to back it up.

Isn't kind of odd for a player that you claim to be such high impact like Rose...actually sees his team have a better point differential without him on the court in both the regular season and playoffs for his career?

Regular season;

With Rose plus 3.1...without Rose plus 3.4

Playoffs;

With Rose minus .5...without rose plus 1.3


Dat impact...

2. You can't admit when you are wrong

[Pointguard]

Another terrible post. Dirk would still be awesome even if he was a 26/10/3 54% TS player for his career in the playoffs...

He wouldn't be in the playoffs. First things first. If he isn't efficient he has no game. His career shooting percentage is only 47% now. If he's shooting 42% he really sucks. He's at 21 to 20 ppg shooting 42% and never getting to 10 rebounds per game as a 7 footer. He would even get less fouls. He is totally dependent on efficiency.

He just wouldn't be all time great like top 20 all time.

TS% is hugely important. It's your fg%, 3pt%, and ft% combined.

You fail hugely in 2 ways;

1. You don't realize Dirk brings a lot more to the table. You ignore the impact of having a 7 foot sharp shooter that has to be doubled without the ball on pick and pops....and you discount his great defensive rebounding as well. You discount everything about his game. Why? Because it's you that doesn't understand the game. You think a player has to break down a defense of the dribble to make players better...LOL

The nineth time in this thread you have created a lie out of nowhere. I never said there is one way to make players better. He wasn't a great rebounder cause he never got to ten in his career in the regular season.

But again...the impact is there. You just choose to ignore reality.

With Dirk on the court in the regular season. His teams have a plus 7.6 scoring differential.

that's a team phenomena, sorry he could claim it if he had a lot of interaction is some measurable way. Dirk can't claim others making shots when he isn't creating for them, no more than than Kidd can claim Dirk's points. And it is also above the nineth time you repeated yourself. You are only trying to convince yourself.

[DMAVS41]

He wouldn't be in the playoffs. First things first. If he isn't efficient he has no game. His career shooting percentage is only 47% now. If he's shooting 42% he really sucks. He's at 21 to 20 ppg shooting 42% and never getting to 10 rebounds per game as a 7 footer. He would even get less fouls. He is totally dependent on efficiency.


The nineth time in this thread you have created a lie out of nowhere. I never said there is one way to make players better. He wasn't a great rebounder cause he never got to ten in his career in the regular season.
that's a team phenomena, sorry he could claim it if he had a lot of interaction is some measurable way. Dirk can't claim others making shots when he isn't creating for them, no more than than Kidd can claim Dirk's points. And it is also above the nineth time you repeated yourself. You are only trying to convince yourself.

Uhhh....I don't follow. You say TS% doesn't matter that much.

But now if Dirk drops to 54% TS (which is not terrible)...it's going to take a team that was winning on average like 55 games a year to out of the playoffs? That seems like efficiency has a huge impact in your opinion...if it doesn't matter that much...why would it be such a huge deal that it would cause near 60 win teams to miss the playoffs.

It's not a team phenomena...and yes...Dirk is responsible so often for when other players make shots. This is what you ignore and why that gif of Indy vs the swordsman is so apt.

You think the only way to make players better is an assist. Watch a game with Dirk setting 50 screens for Ellis and Calderon and tell me that doesn't directly impact how many good shots they get. And why is it do deadly? Because the bigs can't hedge without Dirk either getting a great shot or getting the switch to a smaller guard which will require a double.

And you accuse me of not understanding the game? ROFL...

Somehow Dirk has gotten great point differential on court vs inept help off court....completely different than Rose in 11 and 12. It's reality...what a team does without their star player is not directly related to said star player.

Take a look at Duncan. The player who has gotten the most consistent regular season help of this era by far. His bench has a plus 1.3 differential over that time...which is absolutely fantastic.

Rose's bench has a ****ing plus 3.4 differential...and the two years we talk about he had a plus 6.1 and plus 8.7 scoring differential from his bench.

It's like all time great shit dude...

I love it. It's a team phenomena...lets take a look at how impressive Rose's on court differential in the regular season really has been...



Kobe +5.2
Duncan +9.7
Lebron +7.1
Shaq +6.9
Durant +2.5 (his first 2 years on horrid teams unfairly hurts him here)
Wade +6.1
KG +6
Paul +4.6
Nash +7.1
Dirk +7.6

Rose +3.1

Now, if I went down the list I guarantee you Rose has gotten better bench play than everyone on the list...lets do it;

Kobe -1.5
Duncan +1.3
Lebron -3.9
Shaq -.8
Durant +.5
Wade -2
KG -5.7
Paul -4.2
Nash -.4
Dirk -3.6

Rose +3.4

What do you know. Out of all the above players...Rose's team has performed the best...clearly...with him off the floor.

Again...this stuff is paramount to winning games in the regular season. In the playoffs star power trumps bench play as stars play more and you play better teams...etc. But in the regular season...when you play average to bad teams often...and star players roughly sit 10 to 14 minutes a night. Bench play or on/off play is very important.

Funny how it all makes sense with reality...isn't it?

If I asked you to order which players had the most regular season help from most to least, my order before I saw the numbers would have been;

Rose
Duncan
Shaq
Durant
Kobe
Nash
Dirk
Wade
Lebron
Paul
KG

Yep, but dat supporting cast just sucked...

[DMAVS41]

Pointguard

Do you agree that scoring differential is really important for winning games?

Also, could you answer the following scenario question;

Player A goes to the bench up 10 points. When he comes back into the game... His team is now up 12 points.

Player B goes to the bench up 10 points. When he comes back into the game...His team is now up 9 points.

Which player had the better bench performance?