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  1. #1
    Local High School Star Ainosterhaspie's Avatar
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    Default What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling.

    This is a topic that may be impossible to have a conversation about here, but hear me out. It's such a perplexing thing and it happened not once, but twice. It's unprecedented in basketball, and I have a hard time thinking of a parallel in other sports. The greatest dont just stop when they are at the top of the game. Its...weird.

    But what does it mean? Perhaps the simple answers, grief over his father the first time, having nothing left to prove are correct, but there are reasons to believe they at the very least don't tell the whole story.

    One thing I've always pondered with him is whether it was an unavoidable consequence of the intensity with which he played...and lived. Because he didn't just go all out in basketball. Think of stories of him at the Olympics partying all night, golfing in the morning then dominating everyone in practice and games. A body and mind can only take so much.

    Think about a runner. It's not possible to maintain a full sprint for a marathon. I feel like Jordan was in some ways someone who wouldn't settle for anything less than a sprint, no matter the distance. He's Philippides running the distance so fast his mind pushes his body beyond its limit sho he dies upon reaching his destination.

    So Jordan finished 93 with what he described as one of the toughest series in terms of effort needed to win, maxing himself out to a level that wasn't sustainable. And maybe he simply didn't have enough in the tank to go again. He had to give up a year and a half to refill the tank and repair the engine.

    The notion he had nothing left to prove doesn't sit right with me especially after the first retirement. Not with Russell out there with 11 titles and Kareem and Magic ahead of him as well. Not with Hakeem lurking and rising as a force yet to be vanquished.

    And losing his father doesnt explain it satisfactorily either. Others have lost loved ones and powered through. He just yielded the title, undefended at the peak of his powers when he could have honored his father by throttling the league for years leaving no doubt as to his place in history. Instead he stopped with that still an open question.

    But what this thread is really about is the balance that is needed to sustain greatness for an extended period. Here I need to bring up LeBron, but this is not about devolving into the endless Jordan/LeBron debates which I am admittedly guilty of stoking. LeBron can be fairly criticized for not pushing into redline territory like Jordan. He probably paces himself too much. He was able to sustain a modern record finals streak, an achievement requiring incredible stamina even accounting for the conference. Perhaps less pacing and more redlining leads to winning a lost title, but then could well have cost titles or chances at titles later due to burnout or injury.

    There's something to be said for finding the sweet spot between the two. Not burning so hot, that an extended cooldown is required yet not keeping the heat so low that the water never boils.

    Anyway Jordan's two early retirements and how they tie in to his competitive intensity intrigue me.

  2. #2
    Embiid > Jokic SouBeachTalents's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    I honestly never understood why Jordan gets criticized for this. I really think the first one was heavily influenced by the murder of his father, which in turn motivated him to play baseball in his memory.

    The second one is even more understandable, 35, coming off another 3peat/title winning shot, the Bulls on the verge of being broken up, the league on the verge of a lockout.

    Honestly, those retirements cost Jordan more than anything. He missed out on 1-2 more potential titles, MVP's, All-NBA selections, career points etc. Granted, you could play devils advocate and argue if he doesn't retire maybe he doesn't have as much left in the tank for the 2nd 3peat, but I still feel like those retirements were a net negative overall in regards to eliminating potential additional accomplishments.

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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    Quote Originally Posted by SouBeachTalents View Post
    I honestly never understood why Jordan gets criticized for this. I really think the first one was heavily influenced by the murder of his father, which in turn motivated him to play baseball in his memory.

    The second one is even more understandable, 35, coming off another 3peat/title winning shot, the Bulls on the verge of being broken up, the league on the verge of a lockout.

    Honestly, those retirements cost Jordan more than anything. He missed out on 1-2 more potential titles, MVP's, All-NBA selections, career points etc. Granted, you could play devils advocate and argue if he doesn't retire maybe he doesn't have as much left in the tank for the 2nd 3peat, but I still feel like those retirements were a net negative overall in regards to eliminating potential additional accomplishments.

    This

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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    MJ didn't retire early really, except the first time following the death of his father, which is understandable.

    Careers in general were way shorter back then.

    Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas, Barkley, Ewing, they all got done in by injuries. They were also among those playing the hardest.

    I think MJ also had such a good feel for the game, that he could essentially tell, if he wouldn't be able to sustain elite level. Mentally first retirement, physically second time.

    And that's where you're correct, doesn't seem like MJ really wanted to play unless it was for complete domination. I mean, the man won back to back 3-peats.

    What do you do to motivate for 82 games at age 36, when you've done back to back 3-peats, won everything.

    Eventually the love of the game made him come back again, but that was a different MJ, just happy to compete, didn't have to win.

  5. #5
    Euros rule NBA, UMAD? Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    Quote Originally Posted by SouBeachTalents View Post
    I honestly never understood why Jordan gets criticized for this. I really think the first one was heavily influenced by the murder of his father, which in turn motivated him to play baseball in his memory.

    The second one is even more understandable, 35, coming off another 3peat/title winning shot, the Bulls on the verge of being broken up, the league on the verge of a lockout.

    Honestly, those retirements cost Jordan more than anything. He missed out on 1-2 more potential titles, MVP's, All-NBA selections, career points etc. Granted, you could play devils advocate and argue if he doesn't retire maybe he doesn't have as much left in the tank for the 2nd 3peat, but I still feel like those retirements were a net negative overall in regards to eliminating potential additional accomplishments.
    It's one of those really disingenuous arguments. And it was never a point of criticism until recent years. Same with his playoff record the first 3 years of his career. People understood the context that MJ's early Bulls didn't have the talent to compete with the Celtics and Pistons, but they're willing to go to that well to argue Lebron's shortcomings 3 out of 4 years against the Warriors. MJ in his second year put up historic numbers against a Celtics squad that is quite comfortably one of the 5 best teams ever. And he didn't have a remotely decent running mate alongside him, including the likes of Orlando Woolridge who had good scoring numbers but so have many other players who didn't effect winning in any way.

    Over the first 9 years of his career, MJ played five 82 game seasons, an 81, 80, a 78 and missed most of the second season due to injury. The 93 season ended with one of the best statistical outputs of his career (33/7/6), and a historic finals (41/8/6). There's no on-court evidence that he couldn't have produced another MVP level season in 94 if not for his father's death and all the scrutiny he was getting for the gambling. I'm inclined to think he would have come back for 94 if not for his father's death. We won't know one way or another.

    In general, MJ never struck me as someone who was gonna hang around to see him at less than peak/prime level. I was surprised he came back at 38 to play against a completely different era of talent, and hold his own most nights. But like you said, he left things on the table that would have made it near impossible for anyone else to even dream of getting into the GOAT discussion.
    Last edited by Phoenix; 02-25-2020 at 08:38 AM.

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    NBA Superstar FultzNationRISE's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    I see what youre getting at OP, and frankly I agree with you that MJ just didnt have the physical or mental stamina that Lebron has. Youre right that it detracts from his legacy a bit, but even with that he still ranks somewhere in the top 5-10. Which is impressive and shouldnt be diminished.

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    Euros rule NBA, UMAD? Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    Quote Originally Posted by FultzNationRISE View Post
    I see what youre getting at OP, and frankly I agree with you that MJ just didnt have the physical or mental stamina that Lebron has. Youre right that it detracts from his legacy a bit, but even with that he still ranks somewhere in the top 5-10. Which is impressive and shouldnt be diminished.
    Shut up Wheels. Report that.

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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    Quote Originally Posted by FultzNationRISE View Post
    I see what youre getting at OP, and frankly I agree with you that MJ just didnt have the physical or mental stamina that Lebron has. Youre right that it detracts from his legacy a bit, but even with that he still ranks somewhere in the top 5-10. Which is impressive and shouldnt be diminished.
    Utter doofus.

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    NBA Superstar FultzNationRISE's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Shut up Wheels. Report that.

    Reported for cyber bullying.

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    Euros rule NBA, UMAD? Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    Quote Originally Posted by FultzNationRISE View Post
    Reported for cyber bullying.
    Great. I'll report myself just to help you out.

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    NBA Superstar FultzNationRISE's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix View Post
    great. I'll report myself just to help you out.


    let me do itttt

  12. #12
    NBA rookie of the year Da_Realist's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    Quote Originally Posted by Ainosterhaspie View Post
    The notion he had nothing left to prove doesn't sit right with me especially after the first retirement. Not with Russell out there with 11 titles and Kareem and Magic ahead of him as well. Not with Hakeem lurking and rising as a force yet to be vanquished.
    Russell didn't matter. MJ never tried to have the most everything. Using career achievements as a way to prove greatness is a recent thing. MJ wanted to be the best of his time, not all time. Nobody talked about Russell's 11 rings in 93. MJ retired having tied Wilt Chamberlain for most consecutive seasons leading the league in scoring. All he had to do was play one more season to break it. He didn't care. He left points and championships on the table. He only cared about the competition. He three-peated when no one had been able to do that since the 60's. Magic was gone. Bird was gone. The Bad Boys defeated for good. He had no point to prove. That is what drained him of his motivation.

    And Hakeem wasn't a thing at the time. He was a beast...the league's 2nd best player...but he hadn't led his team to the title and no one thought he would have the two year run he ended up having. I'm sure if MJ knew what would happen, he would have continued to play to meet the challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ainosterhaspie View Post
    And losing his father doesnt explain it satisfactorily either. Others have lost loved ones and powered through. He just yielded the title, undefended at the peak of his powers when he could have honored his father by throttling the league for years leaving no doubt as to his place in history. Instead he stopped with that still an open question.
    Death affects us all differently.

  13. #13
    Euros rule NBA, UMAD? Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    Quote Originally Posted by Ainosterhaspie View Post

    The notion he had nothing left to prove doesn't sit right with me especially after the first retirement. Not with Russell out there with 11 titles and Kareem and Magic ahead of him as well. Not with Hakeem lurking and rising as a force yet to be vanquished. Don't know why he'd he looking at Hakeem specifically as some challenge to overcome. Back in 93, you had guys like Shaq and David Robinson who were equally looming threats.

    I missed this one. Outside of a finals trip in 86 with Ralph Sampson, Hakeem never sniffed a conference finals until 94. Seems he was pretty vanquish-able outside of a 2 year period.

    As for Russell, too much player movement for those circumstances to come close to being duplicated. Not even a carrot worth reaching for in the last 40 years. Hell, the Durant- Curry Warriors managed 2 titles, the third year derailed by injury and Durant leaving. 3 titles is damn hard in general. A 3peat? Nigh high impossible. Two 3peats? Not likely to see that matched anytime soon if ever.

    Even Kareem wasnt really of his era. MJ saw the 3peat as a way to distance himself from Magic and Bird, his immediate contemporaries. We are far more caught up in the GOAT conversation now than back then. You got Lebron going on his own show proclaiming himself the GOAT after 2016. Players just didnt and dont do things like that publicly. Privately? Sure, but MJ has always said he didnt like to compare himself to people before him because he never played them. The whole 'this person is the GOAT' is a barber shop conversation and fanboy drivel on message boards.
    Last edited by Phoenix; 02-25-2020 at 11:05 AM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: What Does MJ Stepping Aside As The Best Player Twice Say About Him? Not Trolling

    Quote Originally Posted by Ainosterhaspie View Post
    The notion he had nothing left to prove doesn't sit right with me especially after the first retirement. Not with Russell out there with 11 titles and Kareem and Magic ahead of him as well. Not with Hakeem lurking and rising as a force yet to be vanquished.

    And losing his father doesnt explain it satisfactorily either. Others have lost loved ones and powered through. He just yielded the title, undefended at the peak of his powers when he could have honored his father by throttling the league for years leaving no doubt as to his place in history. Instead he stopped with that still an open question.

    But what this thread is really about is the balance that is needed to sustain greatness for an extended period. Here I need to bring up LeBron, but this is not about devolving into the endless Jordan/LeBron debates which I am admittedly guilty of stoking. LeBron can be fairly criticized for not pushing into redline territory like Jordan. He probably paces himself too much. He was able to sustain a modern record finals streak, an achievement requiring incredible stamina even accounting for the conference. Perhaps less pacing and more redlining leads to winning a lost title, but then could well have cost titles or chances at titles later due to burnout or injury.
    Sorry but these just seem like completely uninformed takes. You seem completely uninformed on how Jordan was viewed at the time, what the context around the GOAT arguments were, how much people cared about accomplishments, and how people viewed Hakeem at the time.

    People never really brought up Russell or Kareem when it came to Jordan. Never. He was compared to Magic and Bird somewhat frequently because they were in the same era. With that said, even with the shorter career and less titles, he was largely considered the GOAT even at that time. And the GOAT discussion back then didnt dive into accomplishments or longevity. The discussion was really “who was the best player youve ever seen”. To the majority at the time, it was Jordan.

    Even though Hakeem was coming off his best season, no one cared about him at the time any more then then they cared about Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Shaq, etc. At the time, more people thought the Suns and Knicks would continue to be the Bulls biggest threats.

    IM not sure how its anyone’s place to judge what a person does in the wake of tragedy, especially when it was as tragic as Jordan’s dad. I mean, we are not just talking about someone dying. The man was murdered and what’s worse is that people were questioning if Jordans actions had something to do with it.

    So with all that said, coming off winning 3 straight titles (which no one today understands how big of an accomplishment that was considered at the time) and with no one questioning his ability and greatness at the time when he conquered his biggest competition and was widely considered the winner of the GOAT argument, it’s completely believable that he felt he had nothing left to prove and wanted to switch gears in response to a completely tragic event in his life. The guy didnt play for counting records.

    And the comparison to Lebron or anyone since Jordan except for maybe Shaq doesn’t really fit because none of these guys except for arguably Shaq had a run similar to either of Jordan’s three-peats where they dominated to that degree where they felt they didnt have anything to prove.

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