The rest of the NBA has now almost tied Wilt Chamberlain for most 60pt games

[GoranDragon]

Wilt had no decent competition in his position back then. All he had to do was score on short white guys.

Adjusted for pt inflation, Carmelo 62pt game would roughly equate to a 90pt game in Wilt's era.

[fpliii]

I think the high-post stuff is exaggerated. Yes, he did, and could, play the high post, but he was still a low-block guy for the vast majority of those seasons. In fact, in the very limited footage that exists from those years ('64 and '67), Chamberlain is still almost exclusively playing off the low-block, and usually the left side.

VBK DID ask Wilt to play the high post, and it was a bust. And again, in the footage that exists from the '69 Finals, Wilt isn't playing much at the top. But one thing was clear, he wasn't touching the ball much either. In fact, when Russell picks up his 5th personal foul, the Lakers immediately go into Wilt, and he goes right around Russell's "matador" defense, for an easy layin. I can't recall now, but I don't think he touched the ball on the offensive end the rest of the game.

You're right, Chamberlain mostly played the lowpost - he came out to the high post rarely on film. When he did, it was almost always leading to a pass or some sort of P&R or give and go. In college he would score from the high post too but he never really intended to shoot from the high post in the NBA from what I can watch on film. He plays the middle of the key a lot and the baseline, those are his two favorite spots. Either side of the floor too, though he tends to play on the left side more often than the right side probably in part because he has his fade-away from that side and also in part because that's the traditional side centers play on (A forward traditionally wants the right side open for a drive).

He plays middle of the key, he doesn't go out to the top I just skimmed through that footage tonight. In the '69 ASG which is full, Chamberlain plays about half the game I think. Anyways he goes out to the top maybe a handful of times and it always seems to help recover a loose ball or assist ball movement etc. I recall two attempted assists by him from the high post in the '69 ASG both got botched as the cutting man he passed too (I think it was Baylor both times) lost the ball.

Thanks guys, I'll have to do more research I think.

[Marchesk]

Wilt had no decent competition in his position back then. All he had to do was score on short white guys.

Adjusted for pt inflation, Carmelo 62pt game would roughly equate to a 90pt game in Wilt's era.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt had no decent competition in his position back then. All he had to do was score on short white guys.

Adjusted for pt inflation, Carmelo 62pt game would roughly equate to a 90pt game in Wilt's era.

Two can play that game, my friend.


Think about this...adjust Wilt's NBA down to 2014 levels, and he would STILL be averaging 42.6 ppg in TODAY's NBA. Go ahead...do the math.

I'll do it for you. The simplified version...

Chamberlain's 61-62 NBA averaged 118.8 ppg. Today's NBA is averaging 100.3 ppg. Divide 100.3 / 118.8 and you get .844. Multiply Wilt's 50.4 ppg * .844, and you would get 42.6 ppg.

And don't get me started with "possessions" either. First of all, no one really knows what the real "pace" was in 61-62, and secondly, if you adjust for possessions, then you have to also adjust for eFG%'s.

[fpliii]

Two can play that game, my friend.


Think about this...adjust Wilt's NBA down to 2014 levels, and he would STILL be averaging 42.6 ppg in TODAY's NBA. Go ahead...do the math.

I'll do it for you. The simplified version...

Chamberlain's 61-62 NBA averaged 118.8 ppg. Today's NBA is averaging 100.3 ppg. Divide 100.3 / 118.8 and you get .844. Multiply Wilt's 50.4 ppg * .844, and you would get 42.6 ppg.

Didn't we determine that you can't linearly scale down FGA with pace, because historically starters and stars haven't had their shots greatly reduced with fewer possessions, while bench players have?

The exception obviously being 61-62, because scoring 50ppg was by McGuire's design (source: Pluto's Tall Tales).

I thought I posted that table with guards'/forwards'/centers' TSA. Rebounds will go down yes (due to TSA), and blocks too (since fewer shots are attempted).

[LAZERUSS]

Didn't we determine that you can't linearly scale down FGA with pace, because historically starters and stars haven't had their shots greatly reduced with fewer possessions, while bench players have?

The exception obviously being 61-62, because scoring 50ppg was by McGuire's design (source: Pluto's Tall Tales).

I thought I posted that table with guards'/forwards'/centers' TSA. Rebounds will go down yes (due to TSA), and blocks too (since fewer shots are attempted).

You probably did. But you are way over my head my friend. I can do old school math, and adjust for FGAs, FTAs, RPG, and eFG%'s, which generally level the playing fields, but using advanced math...I will be the first to admit, I can't keep up.

I will tell you this...I won't argue with your numbers, though. I know I won't win.

[fpliii]

Right now, based on some quick SI searches, I'm going with the following:

Mostly Low Post
59-60
60-61
61-62
62-63
63-64
64-65 SFW
64-65 PHI
65-66
69-70 pre-injury

Mostly High Post
68-69

Mixture of High Post and Low Post
66-67
67-68
69-70 post-injury
70-71
71-72
72-73

I'll look into our dumped newspapers when I have a chance and see if I can find anything useful.

Articles:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...51/2/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...54/7/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...5691/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...87/3/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...1714/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...42/1/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...42/2/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...05/1/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...38/2/index.htm

[LAZERUSS]

Right now, based on some quick SI searches, I'm going with the following:

Mostly Low Post
59-60
60-61
61-62
62-63
63-64
64-65 SFW
64-65 PHI
65-66
69-70 pre-injury

Mostly High Post
68-69

Mixture of High Post and Low Post
66-67
67-68
69-70 post-injury
70-71
71-72
72-73

I'll look into our dumped newspapers when I have a chance and see if I can find anything useful.

Articles:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...51/2/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...54/7/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...5691/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...87/3/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...1714/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...42/1/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...42/2/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...05/1/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...38/2/index.htm

I think that research is probably 99% accurate...but still a considerably higher percentage of low-post play though, even in those "mixture" seasons....

[fpliii]

I think that research is probably 99% accurate...but still a considerably higher percentage of low-post play though, even in those "mixture" seasons....

I found an interesting quote:

[QUOTE]The high post-low post controversy became famous largely because it was a simple thing that the public could easily grasp. It concerned the fans much more than it did the players. The Lakers have been beaten mostly for old-fashioned technical reasons

[LAZERUSS]

I found an interesting quote:



source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...21/3/index.htm

I think it underplays the issue of Wilt playing in the high post stylistically, but the bolded is key. I think in any era, if you want to win with a dominant low-post scorer, you need to have shooters to prevent guys from cheating on defense. I commented on this recently in another thread:



It's fine if your center is primarily a jumpshooter:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...42/1/index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...87/3/index.htm

but that wasn't Wilt's strength, at least later in his career when he put on muscle (killing his shooting stroke) and just stopped shooting from distance.

Particularly in today's game, I think he'd benefit from the abundance of shooting specialists, and the existence of the three-point line (which unclogs the paint).

Great research, as always. And, it pretty much sums up why VBK didn't succeed. He asked Chamberlain to make the sacrifices, and play a position in which he was destined to fail.

What is interesting, is this article...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...2021/index.htm

As you can see, it broke on 1/27/69.

"The main problem on the court is not that Chamberlain, Baylor, and West do not get the ball enough. It is that Chamberlain will not, or cannot, go to the basket when he gets it."

However, the night before the article hit the newstands, Wilt erupted for 60 points. A few days later he scored 66. In fact, over the course of 17 straight games, from that 1/26 to 2/23, he averaged 31.1 ppg, In addition to those two 60+ point games, he had six more of 30+. Included were games of 35 against Russell (his highest output against Russell since game five of the '66 EDF's), a 23-35 game against Thurmond (on 70% shooting), and a 31 to 14 beatdown of Willis Reed (who had recently become NY's starting center after trading Bellamy away.)

And then, all of a sudden, in LA's last 15 games...he dropped back down to an even 16.0 pppg. (He did pound Reed again in the last game of the season, with a 25 point game on 11-15 shooting, though.)

And, of course, in the playoffs, he had, by far, his worst scoring post-season of his career to that point. In fact, his 13.9 ppg post-season would be the second worst of his entire career, and only his very last post-season was lower. Granted, he had to battle both Thurmond and Russell, but as he had proved in that 17 game span, he was certainly capable of scoring against both.

And to be honest, I can't recall much of that post-season, either. But what was obvious in game seven of the Finals, was that he just was not touching the ball.


Also interesting was that the very next season, his new coach, Joe Mullaney came to Wilt and asked him to become a scorer again. And, as I have already posted earlier (and you know), Wilt immediately went on a tear, and was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%) when he shredded his knee. And again, that ppg was not aided by one huge game, but rather games of 33, 35, 37, 38 (against Unseld), 42, and 43 points...as well as a 25 point, 9-14 shooting, domination of Alcindor in their first meeting. Oh, and this too, was interesting. West was second in scoring at the time, at 30.8 ppg. Why is that important? Because, after Chamberlain's injury, he would go on to lead the league in scoring, at 31.2 ppg. So it appears that Wilt's scoring or complete absence, had no effect at all on West's scoring.

Just food for thought...

[moe94]

Test.

New generation getting blown the **** out.

[Psileas]

Not exactly relevant, but here's a gem I'd forgotten (taken from http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau.../3/index.htm):

[QUOTE]Baltimore's Terry Dischinger has a recurring nightmare. It was born the recent night the Warriors beat the Bullets 120-118. Dischinger got away from his man and went in for the last

[LAZERUSS]

Not exactly relevant, but here's a gem I'd forgotten (taken from http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau.../3/index.htm):

I have read at least some, who have claimed that Wilt didn't play defense early in his career, and yet, even the Boston players acknowledged Chamberlain's defensive brilliance in the '62 EDF's. And he was ALWAYS limiting the efficiencies of his opposing centers, as well...and doing so while probably blocking 10 shots per game.

I am not claiming that he was on Russell's level back then, but he was very under-rated. And speaking of that, I stand by my assertion that Chamberlain was Russell's equal on the defensive end from the mid-60's on. Maybe not in terms of floor coverage, but in terms of defensive impact, he was. And again, he was DRAMATICALLY reducing the shooting of his peers. Walt Bellamy was a great example. In the 67-68 regular season, Bellamy shot .541 from the floor. Against Chamberlain in the playoffs... .421 (oh, and Wilt averaged 25 ppg on a .584 FG% against him.)

And then later on, we witnessed an old Chamberlain just rendering a peak Kareem to a shot-jacking brick-layer in the post-season (and in every regular season series except in '72, when his Lakers steam-rolled the Bucks 4-1.)

I don't think there is any doubt that Chamberlain stands as the second greatest defensive presence in NBA history.

[SpanishACB]

in other news:

CavsfansFTW has just tied the rest of ISH in total Wilt Chamberlain threads made

[CavaliersFTW]

in other news:

CavsfansFTW has just tied the rest of ISH in total Wilt Chamberlain threads made

Probably true