Quote Originally Posted by Bring-Your-Js
Jlauber to be fair, you seem to carry an anti-Kareem, anti-Bird agenda yourself. Most definitely where Olajuwon is concerned as well.
I have been brutally honest with all three of those guys. I have Kareem at #5, Hakeem at #9 and Bird at #10. However, I have said it many times, I have no problem with those that move Kobe (who I have at #8) around with Hakeem and Bird. I also have Shaq at #6, which is generally HIGHER than most all-time lists.

I tend to look at the ENTIRE body of work. Personal awards, statistical achievements (in BOTH the regular season and post season), and team success. However, regarding TEAM success...a player only has some much control of what teammates he is has, and how they perform. Furthermore,...and this is HUGE...is just how the player performed against his peers. Russell was the greatest "winner" in major professional sports history, and he is #1 on MY all-time list because of that. BUT, those that actually watched, or studied the careers of Russell and Wilt, would attest to the fact that Chamberlain not only outplayed Russell in the vast majority of their H2H games, there were MANY in which Chamberlain just CRUSHED Russell. Here again, Russell had an OVERWHELMING edge in surrounding talent for the first six years of their decade-long battles, and at the very least, a marginal edge in the last four. Then, Wilt had to endure decimating injuries to not only his teammates, but to himself, as well as teammates choking in big games, and incompetent coaching. And, with all of that, Wilt came within an eyelash of beating Russell's "dynasty" FOUR times (losing four game seven's by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.) Add in the horrible officiating in game five of the '70 Finals, and Wilt was at the very edge of winning FIVE more rings. And the bottom line...he was never outplayed in any of his 29 post-season series, and in the vast majority of them, he pounded his opposing center. Not even Kareem can make that claim (he was outplayed in SEVERAL...including two H2H's with a well-past his prime Wilt.)

IMO, Bird is generally over-rated. He only won three rings, with LOADED rosters, and even in one of those, he was not even the best player on his own team (and it came against a 40-42 team in the Finals.) He had SEVERAL poor shooting post-seasons, and in fact, his post-season shooting was below average in his career, and his Finals' shooting was well-below the league average. And I have found it fascinating that in Bird's three best statistical regular seasons, he played MUCH worse in the those post-seasons.

Hakeem is the most over-rated player on ISH. His entire legacy was built on two playoff runs, and in one of those, the actual best player in the league did not play. Furthermore, those that claim that he did not have much help...take a look at the team's that his Rockets beat in the '94 and '95 Finals. Ewing's Knicks had no more surrounding talent than Hakeem's Rockets, and Shaq's Magic were marginally better (and IMO, Hakeem did not outplay Shaq, either.) Hakeem played in 18 seasons. In only five did he even win 50+ games (and never more than 58.) His team's managed to make it to the conference Finals, FOUR times, and to only THREE Finals. My god, his team's were eliminated in the first round, EIGHT times in 15 post-seasons. One MVP, and only a couple of statistical titles.

Kareem is tough for me. At his best, he was as talented as anyone that has ever played the game. BUT, two scoring titles, one rebounding title, and one FG% title in his 20 years (my god, Wilt had THREE seasons in which he led the NBA in all three of those categories...in the SAME season.) And before Magic arrived, Kareem's career was considered a disappointment. He had TEN prime seasons, and only Finals, and only ONE ring (and even that was questionable, since it came against a 41-41 Warrior team, a 48-34 Laker team that was without BOTH West and Baylor, and then a 42-40 Bullet team in the Finals.) He played on two team's with the best record in the league in the 70's that did not win titles (and one of them was swept in the WCF's.) He also played on two more 60+ win teams that were knocked off in the playoffs, one of them in the first round by a 47-35 Warrior team. He was outplayed in a game seven, and at home, by Dave Cowens. He was outplayed by Thrumond in '72 and neutralized by Nate in '73. Wilt, a year removed from major knee surgery and well-past his prime, battled him to a statistical draw in '71. And then, Wilt outplayed him the very next season.

And consider this...Kareem won that lone title in the decade of the 70's..in league's where a 48-34 Warrior team (and with only one super-star) won a title. Or the 49-33 Blazers (who swept Kareem's 53-29 Lakers en route to the title.) Or a 52-30 Sonics team that routed Kareem's loaded Lakers in '79 (and also romped over them in '78.) And even a 44-38 Bullets team won a title (and in that season, Kareem had Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes, Lou Hudson, and Adrian Dantley.) And I always found it fascinating that Kareem copuld play 44.2 mpg on a 63-19 Bucks team in '72, and yet he could only play 41.2 mpg on a 40-42 Lakers team in '76. And, BTW, he averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting in '72 (on a team that had a +11.1 ppg differential), and yet when the Lakers needed him to produce in '76, his numbers dropped to 27.7 ppg and .529 shooting. Also interesting was the fact that Rick Barry could win a title with Wilkes as his second best player, while Kareem's Lakers were blown out in the first and second rounds with a more-prime Wilkes as his second best teammate (and once again, in leagues where the champions went 52-30 and 44-38.)

As for Magic's impact...well, before Magic arrived, Kareem's Lakers were 40-42, 53-29, 45-37, and 47-35, and all were wiped out in the playoffs (and TWICE by Sonics team's with ONE borderline HOF player.) Magic immediately took the Lakers to a 60-22 record, and a title in his ROOKIE season. Furthermore, Magic led the Lakers to that title, with one of the greatest Finals performances ever in a memorable game six win on the road...and with Kareem at home. Magic outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting in EIGHT of their ten seasons together (the last eight BTW.) He won three Finals MVP's in those ten seasons (Kareem won one) and he SHOULD have won yet another in '88 (when Worthy won it.) And speaking of the '88 Finals, the Lakers won that title DESPITE the AWFUL play of Kareem. And I have maintained that the '87 Lakers would probably have won a title without Kareem, as well. Furthermore, Magic was injured in game two of the '89 Finals, and Kareem's Lakers were swept. And Kareem was outplayed by Moses in the '81 playoffs, and then pounded by him in '83. Not only that, but AFTER Kareem retired, the Lakser IMPROVED from 57-25 to a 63-19 record. And then Magic took that injured and over-the-hill Laker team to a 58-24 record, and yet another Finals the very next season. Of course, Magic retired, and the Lakers immediately fell to seasons of 43-39 and then an even worse 39-43...which is about what they were with Kareem, and PRE-Magic.