The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

[G.O.A.T]

I personally have Love at #199 and LMA at #211, but you make some solid points I might reconsider.

When the numbers get this high, it's as you say, random. The tiers were created because of this issue. Basically outside of the top 12-18 it's pretty damn subjective. There are good arguments for almost every guy over every other guy within the tiers I've compiled. It's that grouping of players with similar careers, similar impact, similar greatness that is what I really find to be a satisfying labor.

One day I will abandon the numerical rankings all together, even as I work over my rankings now I am making changes. The top 70-80 I feel pretty good about, after that it's a strange mix of guys who were great individually but not good enough to win anything and guys who couldn't be your star, but as a 2 or 3 could be a key piece to a great team.

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#202 Warren Edward Armstrong (Jabali)
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Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):
Primary Role(s): Best Player on '69 Oaks, 1A/1B on contenders
Prime Averages: 20-7-6 on 44/31/77

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-This is probably a bit too high to rank Warren Jabali, but I'm terrified of what he might do if he were ranked any lower. Jabali was a 6'2" forward, a fantastic talent and in all likelihood legitimately insane. If you've never read Terry Pluto's "Loose Balls" documenting the ABA, it's worth it just for the stories on Jabali, Marvin Barnes and John Brisker. Here's some of my favorite Jabali related quotes with some added context. First from former coach Al Bianchi..."I coached Jabali in Washington (1969-70) and I never knew what was going on in his but I didn't care either. All I knew is...the man played. He may have been the toughest competitor I was ever around in a lifetime of basketball." Despite his great competitive fire, Jabali bounced around from team to team almost every year. Says Rudy Martzke, "When Jabali came to Florida, coach Bob Bass was excited we got him for next to nothing, but I said, we got him for nothing because he's nuts. Bass said he didn't care because we were a scared team ann now with Jabali, everyone would have to be scared of us." And with good reason. Just ask Dave Twardzik, former ABAer and sixth man for the '77 Blazers..."When you had guys like Jabali around, there were fights even in exhibition games." But Jabali himself said it best..."I learned to play on the playground and there your instincts come out, smashing someones face is just basketball." Despite all the madness, dude could play. In 1969 the Oakland Oaks had him, Rick Barry, Doug Moe, Red Robbins and Larry Brown and ran all over the league. With Barry out for the stretch run and playoffs (court case) Jabali took charge. He averaged 29-13-2 (remember he was 6'2") and led the Oaks to the ABA title. Over his career he won the ABA rookie of the year, All-Star game and Playoffs MVP awards and was a four-time all-star. He was crazy good and just plain crazy.
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[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#201 James Jones
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Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 10 (7)
Primary Role(s): Best Player on Middle of the Pack teams, #2/#3 on Contenders
Prime Averages: 19-5-5 on 51/79

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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-IIt

[L.Kizzle]

I've read stories on both Jones and Jabali. You should mention they both made the All-Time ABA Team which was voted on the same time as the NBA @ 50.

[G.O.A.T]

I've read stories on both Jones and Jabali. You should mention they both made the All-Time ABA Team which was voted on the same time as the NBA @ 50.

Thanks to you I don't have to.

But since I love the ABA so much, here's the rest of the All-Time team and a brief comment on anyone who didn't make this portion of the list.

Rick Barry
Artis Gilmore
Moses Malone
Willie Wise
Louie Dampier
Dan Issel
Mel Daniels
Warren Jabali
Zelmo Beaty
Julius Erving
Jimmy Jones
Charlie Scott
Roger Brown
George Gervin
Maurice Lucas
David Thompson
Connie Hawkins
George McGinnis
Billy Cunningham
Spencer Haywood

Bob Netolicky - Another great ABA character, a Bill Laimbeer type but instead of fighting he did something else that started with F. He owned the night club the team partied at after their three titles.

Marvin Barnes - The kind of guy who could eat five hamburgers before a game and then go drop 40/20 on Doctor J. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Billy Paultz - Tough as nails center. ABA's answer to Dave Cowens, proved himself in the NBA late in his prime.
Ron Boone - He reminds me of Dennis Johnson and Joe Dumars combined. High arching jump shot and great athleticism from a combo guard spot.

Donnie Freeman - Clutch scorer, at his peak a top ABA guard, later on an invaluable scorer for the Pacers last title run.

Freddie Lewis - Pacers point guard for the title teams. Overcame resentment for stealing fan favorite Rick Mount's minutes by playing his best basketball in the playoffs.

James Silas - Captain Late, as he was known, was one of the best clutch scores many have ever seen. Silas was considered a top five ABA player before his injuries cost him the '76 ABA playoffs and his NBA career.

Mack Calvin - Small, Lightning quick guard who could finish at the rack, once averaged 27 a game, constantly among the top ABA guards.

Darrel Carrier - Louie Dampier's back court running mate on those loaded Kentucky teams. Carrier was a near 40% three-point marksman, extremely good for his time.

Doug Moe - Would later claim greater fame as a coach with an up-tempo offense, but he could play. Sort of a do everything forward, Moe rebounded his position well and posted 20+ppg averages in multiple seasons.

[ArbitraryWater]

Just start with the top 100

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#200 Carlos Austin Boozer Jr.
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Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (7)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on playoff teams/3rd/4th option on contender
Prime Averages: 18/11/3/1 on 53/72

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-The greatest Alaskan born player I am aware of and a guy who has found his way on to winning teams since his college days. Boozer combines, brute force toughness and a smooth jump shot with blue-collar rebounding and fierce competitiveness to form a prototypical power forward in the modern game. After making a name for himself as a second round pick in Cleveland, Boozer bolted for Utah and helped lead the Jazz to the 2007 Western Conference Finals. Their top showing post Stockton/Malone. In fact Utah went from 26 to 41 to 51 to 54 wins in Boozers first four seasons. The won playoff series in '08 and 2010 as well before he signed with Chicago in the 2010 off-season. During the '07 run Boozers 24/12/3 on 54/74 averages earned him inclusion amongst the leagues top players. He would make his two all-star appearances in '07 and '08 and his only All-NBA nod as well. Though injuries and father time caught up with Boozer shortly after he has acclimated himself well as a role player in the last few seasons, having a very productive 2013 at age 31. What sets Boozer apart from other forwards in this group in below is the same thing that moves Terry Cummings up. He posted numbers on good teams, winning teams that won multiple playoff series and series in consecutive years. Maybe it's a Duke thing, but he always has seemed to get it. With Boozer amnestied now, a number of contenders are biding for his services, he could be a key piece come June to watch for.
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[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#199 Antoine Devon Walker
[/FONT]
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (9)
Primary Role(s): 2nd Option on average teams, #3/#4 on contenders
Prime Averages: 20-9-4-1 on 42/32/63

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-Laugh if you want, but before he was a shot chucking, money blowing machine, Walker could really play. He helped one of the most talented college teams ever win a title at Kentucky and then became one of the best inside/outside forwards in the NBA with the Celtics during the ill-fated Pitino era and their brief renaissance under Jim O'Brien which included trip to the 2002 Eastern Conference Finals. Walker made three all-star teams in Boston and posted seasons of 22/10. 23/9 and 22/9 as well as two other 20 ppg seasons. After a year in Dallas and a year split between Atlanta and Boston, Walker signed with the Heat in 2005 and helped Miami win a title as a third option averaging 12/5 in the regular season and 13/6 in the playoffs. Though he proved he could fit in with a Championship team and play a crucial role, like so many of his generation, Walker seemed to fail to reach his potential. He hit buzzer-beaters, scored almost 50 points twice, posted triple-doubles, but always made a few head-scratching plays for every few good plays. Walker, like so many other talented stars seemed not to know the limits of his skills as time went on, but if you'd have asked him he'd explain it perfectly. Many people wonder why a 30% three point shooter would take four, five, as many as eight three's a game.?. Asked why he shot so many three's he, Walker, obviously replied..."because there are no fours"[/FONT]

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[L.Kizzle]

Boozer a few spora from DC and Vin is alright lookin back at it. Walker I thonk geta overlooked in the past era of forwards. He was like a mini LeBron on those early Celtic teams.

[L.Kizzle]

Marvin Barnes - The kind of guy who could eat five hamburgers before a game and then go drop 40/20 on Doctor J. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Mack Calvin - Small, Lightning quick guard who could finish at the rack, once averaged 27 a game, constantly among the top ABA guards.

Doug Moe - Would later claim greater fame as a coach with an up-tempo offense, but he could play. Sort of a do everything forward, Moe rebounded his position well and posted 20+ppg averages in multiple seasons.

Surprised these guys didn't make your list.

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#198 Richard Joseph McGuire
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Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 11 (9)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on good teams
Prime Averages: 8-5-6 on 39/65

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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-It

[L.Kizzle]

The only early guards you here about is the Celtic backcourt of Cousy/Sharman and Slater Martin since he was Mikan's PG and Max Zaslofsky because of the NCAA incident.

You never really hear about Dick, Davies, Andy Phillip, Bobby Wanzer and Gene Shue.

Bill Bridges played in the short lived ABL in the early 60s.

[wally_world]

[/CENTER]
[FONT="Book Antiqua"]#199 Antoine Devon Walker
[/FONT]
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (9)
Primary Role(s): 2nd Option on average teams, #3/#4 on contenders
Prime Averages: 29-9-4-1 on 42/32/63

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-Laugh if you want, but before he was a shot chucking, money blowing machine, Walker could really play. He helped one of the most talented college teams ever win a title at Kentucky and then became one of the best inside/outside forwards in the NBA with the Celtics during the ill-fated Pitino era and their brief renaissance under Jim O'Brien which included trip to the 2002 Eastern Conference Finals. Walker made three all-star teams in Boston and posted seasons of 22/10. 23/9 and 22/9 as well as two other 20 ppg seasons. After a year in Dallas and a year split between Atlanta and Boston, Walker signed with the Heat in 2005 and helped Miami win a title as a third option averaging 12/5 in the regular season and 13/6 in the playoffs. Though he proved he could fit in with a Championship team and play a crucial role, like so many of his generation, Walker seemed to fail to reach his potential. He hit buzzer-beaters, scored almost 50 points twice, posted triple-doubles, but always made a few head-scratching plays for every few good plays. Walker, like so many other talented stars seemed not to know the limits of his skills as time went on, but if you'd have asked him he'd explain it perfectly. Many people wonder why a 30% three point shooter would take four, five, as many as eight three's a game.?. Asked why he shot so many three's he, Walker, obviously replied..."because there are no fours"[/FONT]

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that's gotta be a mistake

[L.Kizzle]

that's gotta be a mistake

Obviously, probably meant 20.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

that's gotta be a mistake

I know right? No way Walker ever shot above 40%.

[Rocketswin2013]

I wonder where you rank Marques Johnson. Had a really good start to his career in the 80's and was a borderline superstar IMO. If anyone considers Blake Griffin, Kevin love or Steph Curry a superstar, he was one.

[T_L_P]

Really interested to see if/where you place Brad Daugherty!