Breakup of Jordan's Bulls: Why did Jerry Krause destroy the Bulls?

[dee-rose]

Well I don't think think they would have really contended either. Phil was tired of coaching which is why he took that break, and later the Lakers break. I think personally, Phil was gone regardless, but they could have found another coach and then who knows from that perspective.

But Jordan was becoming more human, and Pippen was a different player, that was Rodman's last notable season if I'm not mistaken, so they'd needed to have re-tooled.

I think we should have re-tooled, in hindsight, because even to this day, players remember what the organization did. I think in a different documentary I watched (haven't watched this one yet so it might be here too) KG said something like "why would I wanna play for an organization that treated the greatest player of all time like that? Imagine how they'd treat me" and that was the real stinger. NOBODY would even touch the bulls, even though they had cap space, came off a bunch of rings, and were in a market that loves basketball like Chicago. Everyone says it's because of Jordans shadow, but that's so far off. It's so much less about Jordans shadow and more about what the FO did back then..

[Rose]

NP assumed you meant that. Phil repeated the mind games of causing ego clashes for the Lakers too lol. Remember like in his books he would bash his players while they still played for him even to motivate etc? He sure likes controlling the minds of his players.

I haven't read one of his books yet. I want too though, I probably will in the summer when I have the time. My thing is, he gets tired of figuring out how to control the egos, so he takes a couple years off.

[Clippersfan86]

I still think the Sonics could have won if Glove had played on Jordan for more time than besides the first two games. He flustered the hell out of him, when he was on him.

. 2 minute interview for you Rose. It's Payton talking about that series.. and how he wanted to guard Jordan more but George Karl didn't let him. Man I forget how much I loved The Glove. One of those unique players who will never be replicated. A defense first PG who could guard 1-3 but also an efficient Tony Parker type scorer and great passer. Only defensive minded PG of this last decade is Rondo and he doesn't have shit on Payton. Payton was also a very big PG at a legit 6'4 200 pounds which back in the 90's was a huge guard. Hell even now that's a big PG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9ryM...eature=related

[Rose]

I think we should have re-tooled, in hindsight, because even to this day, players remember what the organization did. I think in a different documentary I watched (haven't watched this one yet so it might be here too) KG said something like "why would I wanna play for an organization that treated the greatest player of all time like that? Imagine how they'd treat me" and that was the real stinger. NOBODY would even touch the bulls, even though they had cap space, came off a bunch of rings, and were in a market that loves basketball like Chicago. Everyone says it's because of Jordans shadow, but that's so far off. It's so much less about Jordans shadow and more about what the FO did back then..

I've heard about the KG quote. here's the thing, If the Admiral hadn't wanted to win another ring with Timmy, Timmy might have come to the Bulls. Because I've read, and kind of agree with it, that Him and T-mac had a deal that they'd both come to Chicago and win rings. But(this I know for a fact) that the Admiral called him and BEGGED AND PLEADED with Duncan to come back to San Antonio, while he was visiting Orlando. And so out of respect, Duncan did.

Tracy's ALWAYS wanted to a Bull since 2000, so that's why I believe that rumor. Like in 08 when the Rockets were looking to trade him he said in a post game against the Jazz that he wanted to a Bull. Plus last offseason.

[dee-rose]

Same with the Lakers haha. He made it work for 3 rings with Kobe and Shaq and 2 after. Btw... is it normal to almost feel pity for the Bulls opponents? I can't help but think how sucky it is that Gary Payton's Sonics and Malone and Stockton's Jazz just got very very unlucky in losing 2 times a piece to the Bulls in the finals. Had they played in any other era... they would have rings. Michael Jordan and the Bulls were heartbreakers lol.

Edit: Sorry Jazz twice.. Sonics once.

TBH, those teams didn't lack the talent at all. They always had some intangible problems (Malone choking), the sonics were a team that weren't as talented but really could have beat the bulls if they made a few changes, like Rose said, keeping Payton on MJ for the whole series. I don't think I've ever seen MJ so bothered by defense in the playoffs. It wasn't the watered down 90's, the bulls were just that much better then everyone else. They really did destroy legacies. Miami's best team ever couldn't even get to the finals because of them. Guys like Malone, Stockton, Barkley never got rings because of the total dominance that the bulls had that decade.

[Rose]

. 2 minute interview for you Rose. It's Payton talking about that series.. and how he wanted to guard Jordan more but George Karl didn't let him. Man I forget how much I loved The Glove. One of those unique players who will never be replicated. A defense first PG who could guard 1-3 but also an efficient Tony Parker type scorer and great passer. Only defensive minded PG of this last decade is Rondo and he doesn't have shit on Payton. Payton was also a very big PG at a legit 6'4 200 pounds which back in the 90's was a huge guard. Hell even now that's a big PG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9ryM...eature=related

I've seen that before. It's pretty informative. For some reason Karl wanted to keep switching him on and off Jordan so that way he wouldn't have figured him out. But even in the later games of the series, Jordan still was struggling.

[Clippersfan86]

TBH, those teams didn't lack the talent at all. They always had some intangible problems (Malone choking), the sonics were a team that weren't as talented but really could have beat the bulls if they made a few changes, like Rose said, keeping Payton on MJ for the whole series. I don't think I've ever seen MJ so bothered by defense in the playoffs. It wasn't the watered down 90's, the bulls were just that much better then everyone else. They really did destroy legacies. Miami's best team ever couldn't even get to the finals because of them. Guys like Malone, Stockton, Barkley never got rings because of the total dominance that the bulls had that decade.

That's why I called the Bulls heartbreakers. They tarnished a lot of careers and broke a lot of dreams by denying great great teams of rings during that dynasty.

[dee-rose]

The worst part about all these documentaries, although I JUST started watching this one, is that they make it seem like Phil suddenly just retired. The whole city, the whole team and FO, and every NBA fan that followed the bulls closely, knew that he was gone after this season. He called it the last dance, and told the players to enjoy it, because it would be the last time they went down that path together. Everyone knew it was coming to an end but all these shows make it look like Phil suddenly decided to kill the team, and Pippen threw a tantrum.

[dee-rose]

I've heard about the KG quote. here's the thing, If the Admiral hadn't wanted to win another ring with Timmy, Timmy might have come to the Bulls. Because I've read, and kind of agree with it, that Him and T-mac had a deal that they'd both come to Chicago and win rings. But(this I know for a fact) that the Admiral called him and BEGGED AND PLEADED with Duncan to come back to San Antonio, while he was visiting Orlando. And so out of respect, Duncan did.

Tracy's ALWAYS wanted to a Bull since 2000, so that's why I believe that rumor. Like in 08 when the Rockets were looking to trade him he said in a post game against the Jazz that he wanted to a Bull. Plus last offseason.

I don't know about Tim... I never heard about that, and Timmy seems like a loyal guy. It wouldn't make sense leaving such a great organization to goto one in complete turmoil. I'm sure if he actually decided to go that T-mac would have been right behind him. As for T-mac, I never mentioned him, cuz I don't think he didn't choose Chicago because of the FO. Thing is, he went to Orlando, and if he was gonna have to carry a team, he might as well carry the team that he grew up watching and be back home. Whether or not it was something that T-mac was thinking, I really think it was a thought that would have had to effect all the free agents that the bulls pursued, even up to this summer. (Wades comments on loyalty, and I remember reading that FO straight up told Lebron he wouldn't be allowed to bring his entourage everywhere and make the bulls his ***** like he did with the cavs, and that MJ wasn't allowed to do those things either) I dunno, I feel like that sort of stuff can stick to a player, it's gotta be huge when deciding where to play.

[Rose]

Also part of the reason I think Krause gets so much hell. Is his idea of tearing them apart failed, mostly because he did it wrong.

The rockets did the EXACT same thing we did. After Barkley's injury made him retire, they trade Pippen to the Blazers then Hakeem to the Raptors. Land the first, and get Yao. Worked pretty well because they got Francis and then flipped him for Tmac and then some people thought they were contenders when healthy.

However after Krause decided to blow up and got brand(seeing the similarities?) The next year decided screw it! trading him for Tyson Chandler, and drafting Eddy Curry. Personally I think he should traded up #1 and gotten Tyson, by trading the #2, and Artest or Fizer(who were both pretty highly rated at the time) and then had a Brand-Tyson front court, gotten Jalen Rose later, and bam. Pretty good team right there for a while. Especially considering Deng would have been on the team still due to that weird ass Suns trade. And Krause's plan would have worked. And he wouldn't catch hell.

[Crown&Coke]

the team couldn't possibly pay all those guys.

Jordan was coming off a 90 million, 3 year deal. He was looking for another 30 million a year to come back.

Pip went and got an 8 figure a year deal with Houston over 5 years.

Rodman was looking to get paid after what he felt like was a below market value contract.

Phil Jackson was looking to get paid.

Im not saying there wasn't ego's involved, but the money wouldn't have worked out no matter how well you work the salary cap.

Krause was an egomaniac who wanted more credit. He had a great eye for talent but poor "people skills." Phil Jackson detested how maniacal he was and how underhanded he was.

[Clippersfan86]

Also part of the reason I think Krause gets so much hell. Is his idea of tearing them apart failed, mostly because he did it wrong.

The rockets did the EXACT same thing we did. After Barkley's injury made him retire, they trade Pippen to the Blazers then Hakeem to the Raptors. Land the first, and get Yao. Worked pretty well because they got Francis and then flipped him for Tmac and then some people thought they were contenders when healthy.

However after Krause decided to blow up and got brand(seeing the similarities?) The next year decided screw it! trading him for Tyson Chandler, and drafting Eddy Curry. Personally I think he should traded up #1 and gotten Tyson, by trading the #2, and Artest or Fizer(who were both pretty highly rated at the time) and then had a Brand-Tyson front court, gotten Jalen Rose later, and bam. Pretty good team right there for a while. Especially considering Deng would have been on the team still due to that weird ass Suns trade. And Krause's plan would have worked. And he wouldn't catch hell.

So Krause was still GM when you guys foolishly traded us 21 year old Elton Brand for HS star/rookie Tyson Chandler? Why the hell would you trade a co ROY for a rookie out of HS on draft day night? In hindsight.. I would of preferred Chandler knowing what Elton did.. BUT he did give us 7 very good and productive years including an amazing playoff run.

[Rose]

I don't know about Tim... I never heard about that, and Timmy seems like a loyal guy. It wouldn't make sense leaving such a great organization to goto one in complete turmoil. I'm sure if he actually decided to go that T-mac would have been right behind him. As for T-mac, I never mentioned him, cuz I don't think he didn't choose Chicago because of the FO. Thing is, he went to Orlando, and if he was gonna have to carry a team, he might as well carry the team that he grew up watching and be back home. Whether or not it was something that T-mac was thinking, I really think it was a thought that would have had to effect all the free agents that the bulls pursued, even up to this summer. (Wades comments on loyalty, and I remember reading that FO straight up told Lebron he wouldn't be allowed to bring his entourage everywhere and make the bulls his ***** like he did with the cavs, and that MJ wasn't allowed to do those things either) I dunno, I feel like that sort of stuff can stick to a player, it's gotta be huge when deciding where to play.

Yeah I can see your side, I just think it's interesting.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...ilydime-070610 Here's Stein talking about it

http://sports.jrank.org/pages/3956/R...in-Towers.html And a less credible site saying what I'm saying.

[Rose]

So Krause was still GM when you guys foolishly traded us 21 year old Elton Brand for HS star/rookie Tyson Chandler? Why the hell would you trade a co ROY for a rookie out of HS on draft day night? In hindsight.. I would of preferred Chandler knowing what Elton did.. BUT he did give us 7 very good and productive years including an amazing playoff run.

Because he thought they'd be a younger version of the Spurs twin towers. With Curry being the offensive dynamite, and Chandler being a great low post defender. Great idea! just the wrong players.

[dee-rose]

Also part of the reason I think Krause gets so much hell. Is his idea of tearing them apart failed, mostly because he did it wrong.

The rockets did the EXACT same thing we did. After Barkley's injury made him retire, they trade Pippen to the Blazers then Hakeem to the Raptors. Land the first, and get Yao. Worked pretty well because they got Francis and then flipped him for Tmac and then some people thought they were contenders when healthy.

However after Krause decided to blow up and got brand(seeing the similarities?) The next year decided screw it! trading him for Tyson Chandler, and drafting Eddy Curry. Personally I think he should traded up #1 and gotten Tyson, by trading the #2, and Artest or Fizer(who were both pretty highly rated at the time) and then had a Brand-Tyson front court, gotten Jalen Rose later, and bam. Pretty good team right there for a while. Especially considering Deng would have been on the team still due to that weird ass Suns trade. And Krause's plan would have worked. And he wouldn't catch hell.

The draft picks were a huge fail, but it didn't really help us that we had a million picks in probably the worst draft of the decade. One of the huge kickers was that we traded Pipp for a freaking second round pick. Great management right there. Pippen wasn't an all star anymore after that injury but he wasn't some scrub either. The biggest problems we had were patience with rookies, coaching and image. Honestly, if we had stuck with Elton Brand and hired someone, say, not named Tim freaking Floyd, then the bulls could have been a completely different team.