When a 6-4 defends a 7 footer (Dellavedova vs. Dirk)

[Rake2204]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBoQCYY32E0

violation

scottie pippen had one too

Yeah, once again, it may sound like a cop-out, but I feel as though the NBA has a history of bending travel violations, becoming especially lax when a player is wide open on a 1-on-0 fast break. I do not necessarily have an issue with that, because it looks cool (Eddie Robinson did it too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7-eXjvcRQM) but I do not believe that means it's by-the-books legal.

Those self-lobs in particular (with no use of backboard) would seem to open a pandora's box if truly deemed legal, as players could then theoretically dribble toward the hoop, come across a defender, throw a pass to themselves over the player's head, then jump and score on the other side. I do not feel that'd ever be seen as a legal play. Again, these guys seem to get the Matrix rule-bend pass in the open floor (see Francis, Steve).

In case it was overlooked before, here are the lines coming directly out of the NBA rule book:

A player may not be the first to touch his own pass unless the ball touches his backboard, basket ring or another player.

A player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, basket ring or another player.

Top of Page 38: http://www.nba.com/.element/mp3/2.0/...-Rule-Book.pdf

[PistonsFan#21]

Yeah, once again, it may sound like a cop-out, but I feel as though the NBA has a history of bending travel violations, becoming especially lax when a player is wide open on a 1-on-0 fast break. I do not necessarily have an issue with that, because it looks cool (Eddie Robinson did it too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7-eXjvcRQM) but I do not believe that means it's by-the-books legal.

Those self-lobs in particular (with no use of backboard) would seem to open a pandora's box if truly deemed legal, as players could then theoretically dribble toward the hoop, come across a defender, throw a pass to themselves over the player's head, then jump and score on the other side. I do not feel that'd ever be seen as a legal play. Again, these guys seem to get the Matrix rule-bend pass in the open floor (see Francis, Steve).

In case it was overlooked before, here are the lines coming directly out of the NBA rule book: Top of Page 38: http://www.nba.com/.element/mp3/2.0/...-Rule-Book.pdf

So according to this rule a player that dribbles and then pushes the ball way in front of him on a fastbreak before recovering it should be called for a traveling or self pass violation? Thank you for clarifying with the NBA link im just not sure if throwing the ball in the air while remaining motionless can be qualified as a pass.

And the example you mentionned would be almost impossible to complete unless the player on offense had God like hangtime to throw the ball over the defender's head, jump from in front of him, catch it on the other side and release the shot before touching the ground again. The defender would have to be pretty slow to let this happen. Its basically the same as thrusting forward on a shot except that the ball is not in your hands during the whole process. Like i said i might be wrong though.

In your opinion would the drill he does at 0:30 seconds in this video be considered a travel or self pass if he remained stationary ? Lets say if he kept his hands a bit wider apart and the ball moved a longer range of motion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0xQ...%3Dz0xQYIU-NME)

[Pointguard]

In AAU what Steph did was called discontinued. Once you pick up your dribble, you get your two steps on the layup and nothing else. The ball can be considered a fumble or loss of control. Moses Malone at first used to fumble the ball off the backboard. Then didn't care any more.

Once the dribble is picked up with the intent to pass or shoot, and the ball leaves the hands, it can't be retrieved unless it hits backboard, rim or other players. I'm pretty sure this can be enforced when its begins to look sloppy. When Pete Maravich made it look good it was let go just like palming/carry is allowed.

[Rake2204]

So according to this rule a player that dribbles and then pushes the ball way in front of him on a fastbreak before recovering it should be called for a traveling or self pass violation? Thank you for clarifying with the NBA link im just not sure if throwing the ball in the air while remaining motionless can be qualified as a pass.

No. A live dribble is a live dribble. As long as legal dribbling rules are being followed (ball is not being palmed, collected, or cuffed between dribbles), a dribble can go anywhere a player can take it.

However, if a player were dribbling and at one point their hand went beneath the ball (far enough beneath to otherwise be declared a palming or carrying violation), as a means of propelling the ball in front of himself on a fast break, that would be a travel. Also, if a player did any other form of collection (grabbing with two hands, clearly palming) during the dribbling process, that would also be a travel.

Dribbling is the primary means by which players can move along the floor while in possession of the basketball. That would be the time where we could say a player can do just about anything he wanted, as long as he was following the rules of dribbling (no cuffing, collecting, carrying, palming). He can perform a dance routine if he so desires, as long as he keeps his legal dribble live.

And the example you mentionned would be almost impossible to complete unless the player on offense had God like hangtime to throw the ball over the defender's head, jump from in front of him, catch it on the other side and release the shot before touching the ground again. The defender would have to be pretty slow to let this happen. Its basically the same as thrusting forward on a shot except that the ball is not in your hands during the whole process. Like i said i might be wrong though.

Yep, I kind of thought things would get a little twisted on this front so I apologize for not being more clear. That portion of my response was particularly in regards to the David Lee and Eddie Robinson self-alley oop examples posted by inclinerator and myself. In those instances, they were running down the floor, threw the ball in the air while no pivot was ever established, then lept in the air and threw the ball down.

My example was using those plays as a base. If those guys could legally do that, other players could theoretically run at a defender, float it over their head, then jump in the air, catch and shoot on the other side. Regardless of whether we want to consider any of these plays realistic to pull off, I feel it does not matter because, again, they are examples of passes to oneself which, at fear of sounding repetitive, is stated pretty clearly in the NBA rule book as being flatly illegal unless the ball touches the backboard, rim, or another player first, with no exceptions for pivot feet, jumping, being stationary, or moving.

In your opinion would the drill he does at 0:30 seconds in this video be considered a travel or self pass if he remained stationary ? Lets say if he kept his hands a bit wider apart and the ball moved a longer range of motion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0xQ...%3Dz0xQYIU-NME)

Yes. I believe that would be a travel. That's a drill I've had my players do over the years but it was a warm-up for building dexterity and comfort with the basketball, as it was acknowledged that it wasn't something that would be done in a real game.

When a player is in possession and the ball leaves their hands, it must be for a purpose - either to begin a dribble, shoot, or pass. I believe that controlled tapping sequence would be interpreted as a self-pass. Though, I do wish to say that if a player tapped the ball that slightly one time, I could clearly see it being missed by an official. But if they were doing it over and over and over again, and at a wider length (as you suggested), I most certainly believe it'd be a violation.

To be honest, I think the NBA video vault is a tough place to go sometimes in order to find out what is legal and what is not. I believe there's a lot of illegal plays that are sometimes considered harmless in the NBA and are henceforth allowed (again, primarily in the open court when a player, in a league based upon entertainment, is surely going to score one way or another).

Either way, I believe the two rules posted numerous times above should provide an ample amount of clarity on the matter. Self-passes of any kind are illegal unless the rim, backboard, or another player is hit first. The only real grey area I see comes from a live dribbling player who consciously initiates a high dribble, only to dunk the ball in one motion. I find that allowable as I believe the dribble is remaining live in that case and thus, it would be considered a continuation of the dribble as opposed to being a pass (unless, again, the ball was collected, palmed or carried prior to the last bounce).

Edit: I'm going to post the rules again just as a means of keeping them with the conversation and not getting lost in the shuffle above; just for the sake of our own reference.

A player may not be the first to touch his own pass unless the ball touches his backboard, basket ring or another player.

A player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, basket ring or another player.

Top of Page 38: http://www.nba.com/.element/mp3/2.0/...-Rule-Book.pdf

[AboutBuckets]

Thanks man. How about a guy who's a good enough shooter to not have to drive on you? I'm a bit shorter than you, but think of if you had to guard a guy exactly 6' with a nice reliable jumpshot. I try to just deny but once they get the ball, even if I "contest" they can still shoot over. It's frustrating when you're RIGHT THERE and they still make the shot

If you're a bit shorter than me I guess it might be like me guarding a 6'3 or 6'4 guy. In that case, I'll contest not the ball but their vision. When they've picked up their dribble I raise my hand to directly in front of their eyes, obstructing their view of the basket. If you can disrupt their typical shot motion by making them move their head to re-find the basket (usually altering their release) it's going to make it more difficult for them