Jerry West vs Kobe Bryant. Who is the second greatest shooting guard ?

[Doctor Rivers]

Dwyane Wade

[SuperPippen]

Whilst I'd go Kobe, I think it's folly to state that if you put a guy back and say he'd do so much better... without factoring in the realities you'd have to take away like advanced training, weight programs, diet et al.
Same with bringing a guy - like West - forward to this point in time. You must assume that he'd have the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players enjoy.

I agree.

Very good post.

[Doctor Rivers]

Whilst I'd go Kobe, I think it's folly to state that if you put a guy back and say he'd do so much better... without factoring in the realities you'd have to take away like advanced training, weight programs, diet et al.
Same with bringing a guy - like West - forward to this point in time. You must assume that he'd have the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players enjoy.

eh...depends how we are "bringing back/forward" players. at birth? 18 years old?

[DMAVS41]

Whilst I'd go Kobe, I think it's folly to state that if you put a guy back and say he'd do so much better... without factoring in the realities you'd have to take away like advanced training, weight programs, diet et al.
Same with bringing a guy - like West - forward to this point in time. You must assume that he'd have the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players enjoy.

You have to compare players in some sense to their peers and what they did in their era.

This notion that West is not as good because of dribbling skills or something is silly.

[Thorn]

Very close. I would take Kobe, but I believe it's unfair to penalize West for winning one ring. He did just about everything he could in the Finals and fell *just* short of winning the title in many of them. On top of pulling off some ridiculously clutch performances, he had terrible luck. Selvy's miss in Game 7 1962. Baylor's knees falling apart. Don Nelson's shot in Game 7 1969 and Van Breda Kolff not putting Wilt back in (hell West won the Finals MVP in a year he lost in). Willis Reed's return in Game 7 1970.

To make an addition to with malice's point - I believe that if Kobe was replaced with West on the 00s Lakers...they'd have around the same success as they did with Kobe. Can't go wrong with either though - both all-time greats.

[with malice]

I agree.

Very good post.

Thanks. On very rare occasions, I might get something right!

eh...depends how we are "bringing back/forward" players. at birth? 18 years old?

Well, firstly - I think it's a flawed notion anyway - but it would have to be in the sense of "allowing all", wouldn't it? I mean, in the example we're studying, if Kobe were playing in the 60s, he wouldn't have had any of the benefits he's had now. Same with West: if he were playing now, he would have had all of the same benefits.

You have to compare players in some sense to their peers and what they did in their era.

This notion that West is not as good because of dribbling skills or something is silly.

Hehe - which is pretty much what I said! We agree.

[Jacks3]

Nope. Kobe in the 60's would be the same player. Just measuring them as players, Kobe is easily better.

[RRR3]

Nope. Kobe in the 60's would be the same player. These hypothetical what-ifs are silly. Just measuring them as players, Kobe is easily better.

Neither one is "easily" better than the other. They're very close, regardless of who you'd pick. And I would pick Kobe if you're wondering.

[with malice]

Nope. Kobe in the 60's would be the same player. These hypothetical what-ifs are silly. Just measuring them as players, Kobe is easily better.

C'mon man? Without the benefit of all the training? He may well have a similar impact, but stating that he'd be "the same player" is a lil' bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Tho' I do agree: the "what-ifs" are a flawed concept in the first place...

[SuperPippen]

No, Kobe is very easily the better player. Put Kobe in the 60's and he'd put up 38-42+/7-8/6-7/2-3/56-58% TS a night.

As with malice already said, you can't just expect to see stats and results like those if you speculate on what a modern player would do in an older era. For honest, fair speculation, you have to make believe that that player was born at around the same time as players of the older era.

Kobe isn't "very easily" the better player. Is he more athletic? Yes. Does he play with a modern skill set (advanced dribbling, shooting, etc.) in comparison to West? Of course. Does he have the huge advantage of playing in the modern era of basketball? Obviously.

For the record, I believe Kobe is superior. I rank Kobe as the second greatest SG of all time, and West 3rd. I'd rather have Kobe. But it's a lot closer than most people think.

You can't just insert 2006 Kobe into the old school era and expect to play with the same skillet, highflying mindset (flashy dunks, lay-ups, etc.) and medical advantages of today's era. The game just hadn't evolved to that point yet.

A fair basis for speculation about what Kobe would've done in the 60's is, I think, Elgin Baylor. Kobe and Elgin were the same height, very similar athletically (Elgin actually looks even more muscular than Kobe in a lot of old school vids), and Elgin was a lifetime Laker, as well, (for whatever that's worth).

Obviously, Kobe would still be a fantastic, All-NBA player, because greatness is greatness regardless of whatever era it's from. But you can't expect him to be tossing out ungodly numbers like that.

[Legends66NBA7]

Some great and well thought out comments guys.

And unfortunately, some predicatable ones.

In terms of people saying put West in today's NBA and Kobe back in the 60's... I think that the true question you should be asking is:

What if West was born in 1978 and grew up during that era ? How good would he be with the footage of former players before him at his access ? And yes, with malice brought this up, the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players. Not to mention the advanced training, diets, etc..

What if Kobe was born in 1939 and grew up during that era ? How good would he be with limited to no footage of former player and current players ? Less training, less awareness of what's going to improve his games, and trying to make a name for himself in a developing league ?

That's my interpretation of the "put him back in this era" statement.

[knightfall88]

C'mon man? Without the benefit of all the training? He may well have a similar impact, but stating that he'd be "the same player" is a lil' bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Tho' I do agree: the "what-ifs" are a flawed concept in the first place...

equal training won't turn a JJ Reddick into Vince Carter.

Kobe is blessed with athletic talents leagues above what West ever had and it makes no difference what kind of training they might have.

Can your dumb ass do me a favor?

Can you point out which hand Jerry West is dribbling with in the freaking NBA logo? Or is that beyond your extremely limited mental capacity?

Oh you arguing your point with a logo? are you a fckn idiot? How about watching Jerry West footage and observing that he his weak with his left hand

[Legends66NBA7]

C'mon man? Without the benefit of all the training? He may well have a similar impact, but stating that he'd be "the same player" is a lil' bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Tho' I do agree: the "what-ifs" are a flawed concept in the first place...

Yup, pretty much. But since we don't have time travel or anything similar to the sort. If it was, Kobe going back to the past, he would probably a large scale impact, as a lot of those players in the 60's wouldn't even suspect something of that nature and we would probably have different rankings today.

[SuperPippen]

equal training won't turn a JJ Reddick into Vince Carter.

Kobe is blessed with athletic talents leagues above what West ever had and it makes no difference what kind of training they might have.

Yeah, Kobe was more athletic. That much is extremely obvious.

Playing in the modern era still gives players significant advantages that players in the older era never had.

[pauk]

its extremly close... different accomplishments but still very comparable.... ill go with jerry "mr clutch" west....

one more thing which doesnt show on the statsheet.... he impacted the league & nba as not many other....

and:

"He was chosen to be the white silhouette on the NBA logo because the NBA considered West the symbol of perfection as a basketball player."