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Old 09-24-2014, 08:30 PM   #376
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Are you actually making a case that the Cavs had cap space because they weren't able to spend it on the open market in the NBA? Seriously? That's the argument?
No....not at all.

just sayin' that history proves that no great FA has ever chosen the Cavs
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Old 09-24-2014, 08:32 PM   #377
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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Originally Posted by TheMarkMadsen
So which big free agent did the cavs sign after Lebron left?




WTF?

A. How could they patiently maintain cap flexibility if they made a "big" free agent signing after LeBron left?

B. You can spend plenty of money in the NBA without necessarily signing a "big name" free agent. The Pistons literally just showed you how it was done this time last year. Are you saying the Cavs were physically incapable of overpaying for a player the caliber of Josh Smith or Brandon Jennings? That's the argument?
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Old 09-24-2014, 08:49 PM   #378
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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A. How could they patiently maintain cap flexibility if they made a "big" free agent signing after LeBron left?
Is this really a serious question?
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Old 09-24-2014, 09:09 PM   #379
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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Originally Posted by TheMarkMadsen
They weren't patient in the sense that they decided against signing certain free agents so that they'd have cap space in 2014..

They were only patient out of nesassasity as nobody was going to sign with Cleveland after Gilbert acted like an idiot when Lebron left.

They weren't making shrewd moves or doing anything special, they were just praying for Lebron to come back..


You are talking straight out of your ass.


Christ Grant + Gilbert started DAY 1 planning for Lebron coming back to happen. All those moves, acquiring tons of draft picks and roster flexibility (for this summer)

Gilbert in essence bought the pick that became Kyrie by absorbing and later amnestying Davis' K from the clips. None of the FA's that were signed posed any obstacle to clearing space when needed.


Grant skipped over J-Val and drafted Tristan Thompson for a reason. Getting on Rich Paul's good side was a very smart move. Gilbert and Paul had numerous meetings. Paul was often seen at the horseshoe and at cavs games.

Dan Gilbert should get some credit for putting the cavs in position and by going out and sealing the damn deal with that meeting w/ Bron and his Agent.

unlike Miami, Gilbert has always shown Lebron a willingness to spend not only on payroll, arena upgrades, training facilities, and medical staff, but also on perks for Lebron and his friends and family.
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Old 09-24-2014, 09:21 PM   #380
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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Originally Posted by Hey Yo
Is this really a serious question?
It's actually a response to a question that made no sense in the context of this conversation. My position is that the Cavs put themselves in a position to make all of this happen by keeping a clean cap sheet in the four years since James left.

In light of that argument, why is he asking me to show him which "big" free agent signings have been made in the four years James was gone?

Doesn't even make any sense. If they had, for argument's sake, made a big move, none of this would have been possible.
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Old 09-24-2014, 10:05 PM   #381
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW


yes I see now




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Old 09-24-2014, 10:37 PM   #382
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

The butthurt is strong with the cavs haters in this thread lol. some of you need to get a life.
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Old 09-25-2014, 12:11 AM   #383
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
It's actually a response to a question that made no sense in the context of this conversation. My position is that the Cavs put themselves in a position to make all of this happen by keeping a clean cap sheet in the four years since James left.

In light of that argument, why is he asking me to show him which "big" free agent signings have been made in the four years James was gone?

Doesn't even make any sense. If they had, for argument's sake, made a big move, none of this would have been possible.

Who did the Cavs pass on? What players did they walk away from that would have crippled there future and prevented this offseason from happening? Cavs tried to get better. They tried to compete. They were expected to make the playoffs last year. They just failed, or there highly touted guys just didn't carry the load

Cavs obviously deserve credit. They didn't make any insanely stupid moves. In a 4 year span how many teams make moves like that tho? Tons of NBA teams did the exact same thing. They lucked out and won the lottery. Miami lost in the finals, Wade looked awful. Without the #1 pick, without LeBron returning there's no Love. Minny wouldn't have settled for garbage.

They hit the lottery. They won the jackpot. Life is good for Cavs fans, don't pretend like it's anything other than luck tho. Riley recruited LeBron & Bosh and re-signed Wade. 3 superstars at the time. Wade could have went to Chicago, LeBron/Bosh to Cleveland, LeBron to NY etc. that FA was a frenzy. There was a reason those 3 guys chose Miami, Riley being a big reason. LeBron chose Cleveland because his team fell apart, his hometown, they won the lottery etc. K.Love came with. Without that #1 pick nobody knows what happens.
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Old 09-25-2014, 12:13 AM   #384
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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Originally Posted by El Gato Negro
The butthurt is strong with the cavs haters in this thread lol. some of you need to get a life.

Not really butthurt. There the favorites for the future, they've got everything on paper. Ridiculously bright future ahead with youth/elite talent now. Just don't see why some people can't call it what it is which a pretty lucky situation. Those lottery balls will determine possible championships.
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Old 09-25-2014, 05:14 PM   #385
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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Originally Posted by NuggetsFan
Who did the Cavs pass on? What players did they walk away from that would have crippled there future and prevented this offseason from happening? Cavs tried to get better. They tried to compete. They were expected to make the playoffs last year. They just failed, or there highly touted guys just didn't carry the load

Cavs obviously deserve credit. They didn't make any insanely stupid moves. In a 4 year span how many teams make moves like that tho? Tons of NBA teams did the exact same thing. They lucked out and won the lottery. Miami lost in the finals, Wade looked awful. Without the #1 pick, without LeBron returning there's no Love. Minny wouldn't have settled for garbage.

They hit the lottery. They won the jackpot. Life is good for Cavs fans, don't pretend like it's anything other than luck tho. Riley recruited LeBron & Bosh and re-signed Wade. 3 superstars at the time. Wade could have went to Chicago, LeBron/Bosh to Cleveland, LeBron to NY etc. that FA was a frenzy. There was a reason those 3 guys chose Miami, Riley being a big reason. LeBron chose Cleveland because his team fell apart, his hometown, they won the lottery etc. K.Love came with. Without that #1 pick nobody knows what happens.
That's not exactly true. There were no other teams in the NBA with the amount of cap flexibility coming into this offseason when compared to the Cavs. It wasn't an accident that they had huge expirers coming off the books in this particular offseason.

The number of teams that could have outright signed and absorbed James' contract without unloading half the roster and changing the structure of the team was tiny. In fact, the Cavs may have been the only team in the league capable.

They did make the Jack trade before they signed James, but that was only because they wanted to pick up Varejao's team option for another year. They really could have outright signed James to that massive contract without making any other roster moves.

The idea that there was this one big player that the Cavs walked away from to allow this offseason to happen simply isn't the way it works. Teams have to fill out their roster each year. The Cavs have done so very purposefully the last three years with guys on their rookie contracts and short-term deals, all designed to come off the books in the summer of 2014. All it would have taken to end any possibility of this thing would have been for a couple of pretty good players on nice sized contracts. It didn't have to be a big name...

Paul Millsap received a very reasonable contract considering his on-court value last offseason. If the Cavs were a touch less impatient, they could have offered a few million more a year -- and it wouldn't have been all that crazy for Paul -- and maybe an extra year. Suddenly, the team is a lot better last season and this thing never even has the opportunity of happening.

Also, again... trades could have happened. They've been building and building assets for years. And, they actually did make a few moves (Deng, Hawes), but it was all for guys on short-term deals. Draft picks and cap space are two hugely valued commodities in today's league. Throw in a nice young player like Waiters or Thompson and they could have probably gotten a lot better last year.

I have no doubt the urge was there, when everyone was pointing fingers and the GM/coach were ultimately fired. They resisted. Now, it has paid off.

And, yes... they deserve credit for creating a situation that was both appealing enough for James/Love and the cap space/pieces to make it happen. Like I said, when Pat Riley essentially just unloads contracts to make room for James and Bosh -- not exactly the most difficult of plans to execute -- he's hailed as "The Godfather."

When Cleveland similarly creates an environment conducive for something like this to happen, everyone is quick to point out that they had no hand in making it happen. It's hypocrisy. How difficult is it to admit that the Cavaliers played the last few years the right way? I'm not saying Gilbert/Grant/Griffin need to be called The Godfather or that it was some complicated scheme that only a genius could cook up. But, it doesn't have to be complicated to be smart.



As for the TWolves, it isn't like teams were beating down their door to rent Love for a season. They probably would have had no choice but to settle, the same way Orlando settled for the Dwight package, OKC/Harden, New Orleans/CP3, etc. In general, when a guy makes it clear he wants out on the last year of his deal, the team he is leaving gets pennies on the dollar. There's no reason to believe this would have been any different.
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Old 09-25-2014, 06:04 PM   #386
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

Ah I remember this backfire. GOBB would still try to deny it to this day.
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:14 PM   #387
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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Ah I remember this backfire. GOBB would still try to deny it to this day.
I'm not going to beat a dead horse, because I actually like what Philly has done the last couple of years, like I said... but it really is a hilarious turn of events. Forget the fact that the Cavs just had an offseason where it acquired LeBron James, Kevin Love, Shawn Marion and Mike Miller... this thread was initially about Andrew Bynum, whom the Sixers paid a pretty hefty price for.

A year later, the Cavs gave him a shot and gave away nothing in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOBB
lol what is Cavs not wanting to give up more than Andy V and picks for Bynum. Thats lol what.


Oh, GOBB.
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:18 PM   #388
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

Cavs have had what, 3 first overall picks in the past four years, two additional top 5 picks in those years, and one additional first overall pick around 10 years ago?

You guys lucked out and LeBron came back. It seemed like a total non possibility that he'd return until you landed Wiggins.

Nothing to boast about. You either got insanely lucky or the league pulled some strings.
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:43 PM   #389
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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That's not exactly true. There were no other teams in the NBA with the amount of cap flexibility coming into this offseason when compared to the Cavs. It wasn't an accident that they had huge expirers coming off the books in this particular offseason.


The number of teams that could have outright signed and absorbed James' contract without unloading half the roster and changing the structure of the team was tiny. In fact, the Cavs may have been the only team in the league capable.

Cleveland deserves credit for being patient. I think things were always going to work out in Cleveland because management did make smart moves. I give them credit for that, as should everybody. Tons of teams are like that, difference is tons of teams don't have #1 overall picks and not all teams are rebuilding. I'm not 100% sure the cap numbers for every team in the league coming into this offseason but would make sense Cleveland was the only one considering there roster. Tons of teams aren't Detroit tho, lots of teams have patience. Just don't have that kinda talent on rookie contracts.


Quote:
They did make the Jack trade before they signed James, but that was only because they wanted to pick up Varejao's team option for another year. They really could have outright signed James to that massive contract without making any other roster moves.

Exactly. Cleveland wanted to improve. They weren't gunning for rebuilding this season. Nothing ever really came together. They didn't make any desperation plays. If something would have been there to compete they probably would have done it tho.

Quote:
The idea that there was this one big player that the Cavs walked away from to allow this offseason to happen simply isn't the way it works. Teams have to fill out their roster each year. The Cavs have done so very purposefully the last three years with guys on their rookie contracts and short-term deals, all designed to come off the books in the summer of 2014. All it would have taken to end any possibility of this thing would have been for a couple of pretty good players on nice sized contracts. It didn't have to be a big name...

I'm asking who those players were. Who Cleveland realistically walked away from. Milsap? While Cleveland's patience should be applauded it's also pretty naive to believe it was completely because of them and the fact that there situation vs other teams didn't help matters. They didn't give out any Josh Smith type deals, or make a move for a Jennings. Not many rebuilding teams would.


Quote:
Paul Millsap received a very reasonable contract considering his on-court value last offseason. If the Cavs were a touch less impatient, they could have offered a few million more a year -- and it wouldn't have been all that crazy for Paul -- and maybe an extra year. Suddenly, the team is a lot better last season and this thing never even has the opportunity of happening.

Fair enough. No way to really dispute this.


Quote:
Also, again... trades could have happened. They've been building and building assets for years. And, they actually did make a few moves (Deng, Hawes), but it was all for guys on short-term deals. Draft picks and cap space are two hugely valued commodities in today's league. Throw in a nice young player like Waiters or Thompson and they could have probably gotten a lot better last year.

But why do that? Cleveland was rebuilding. Why move your young talent when there actually panning out? They shouldn't be applauded for not making stupid moves like your suggesting. Dumping Waiters and Thompson for what you'd realistically get back that early in a rebuild is beyond dumb. Most teams wouldn't. Nobody moves an Irving or a 2nd year player like Waiters unless your getting something big back. How do we know Cleveland wasn't shopping Waiters looking for a big fish anyhow?

Quote:
I have no doubt the urge was there, when everyone was pointing fingers and the GM/coach were ultimately fired. They resisted. Now, it has paid off.

Agreed the urge was probably there. Who's to say it didn't happen just because of them, and not because there was nobody willing to make the moves they wanted?

Quote:
And, yes... they deserve credit for creating a situation that was both appealing enough for James/Love and the cap space/pieces to make it happen. Like I said, when Pat Riley essentially just unloads contracts to make room for James and Bosh -- not exactly the most difficult of plans to execute -- he's hailed as "The Godfather."

This is what your ignoring. Wade could have went anywhere that year, same with LeBron & Bosh. That was a complete and utter frenzy. All have talked about how important Riley was and his experience with winning rings played a factor. He got 3 superstars. Cleveland got 1 and moved a #1 overall pick for another. How can you not see the difference in that? You yourself have pointed how few teams could outright sign James. Credit Cleveland for not panicking, don't credit them for doing what Riley did.

Quote:
When Cleveland similarly creates an environment conducive for something like this to happen, everyone is quick to point out that they had no hand in making it happen. It's hypocrisy. How difficult is it to admit that the Cavaliers played the last few years the right way? I'm not saying Gilbert/Grant/Griffin need to be called The Godfather or that it was some complicated scheme that only a genius could cook up. But, it doesn't have to be complicated to be smart.

It's not the same tho. Read above. It was a smart move by Cleveland staying patient, not panicking, continuing the rebuild etc. but it wasn't what Miami did.

Quote:
As for the TWolves, it isn't like teams were beating down their door to rent Love for a season. They probably would have had no choice but to settle, the same way Orlando settled for the Dwight package, OKC/Harden, New Orleans/CP3, etc. In general, when a guy makes it clear he wants out on the last year of his deal, the team he is leaving gets pennies on the dollar. There's no reason to believe this would have been any different.

Except Minnesota showed they weren't settling or else Wiggins would still be in Cleveland. It wasn't Cleveland or bust for Kevin Love either. Minnesota would have sweated it out and somebody would have ponied up something better than the 8th overall pick and Anthony Bennett. I mean it appeared Denver was all in with Faried+ even after Love's comments. GS, L.A can never be counted out.

What was the odds of Cleveland landing the 1st overall pick? For something that played as big of a role as that pick did I don't understand how you can deny how lucky the situation was. Credit given sure, tons of luck there as well tho. That draft pick changed the landscape of alot of things.

Doesn't change anything, Cleveland is still amazing going forward. I'd enjoy it, but it isn't like the Heat situation and very dependent on lottery balls which is all luck.
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:45 PM   #390
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Default Re: See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

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Originally Posted by JerrySeinfeld
Cavs have had what, 3 first overall picks in the past four years, two additional top 5 picks in those years, and one additional first overall pick around 10 years ago?

You guys lucked out and LeBron came back. It seemed like a total non possibility that he'd return until you landed Wiggins.

Nothing to boast about. You either got insanely lucky or the league pulled some strings.

Basically what I'm saying. Good job for not making any huge bonehead moves, but you've got more luck with the lottery than any other team. Not something to bow down too really, just enjoy your superteam
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