Lebron craters the apg and assist % of his teammates

[3ball]

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[COLOR="DarkRed"]Lebron achieves his stats by lowering his teammates' PPG and APG.

Specifically, he turns them into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):[/COLOR]



[COLOR="White"]................................................[/COLOR]APG, ASSIST %[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] ASSISTED RATE

Wade [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 6.6, 34.8%[COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR]29.2% [COLOR="DarkGreen"]<---- links to nba.com data[/COLOR]
Wade [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="white"].....[/COLOR] 4.7, 25.5%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]40.3%

Irving [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (12'-14'):[COLOR="white"]....[/COLOR] 5.8, 33.2%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]31.9%
Irving [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Lebron[COLOR="white"]..[/COLOR] (2015):[COLOR="white"].....[/COLOR] 5.0, 25.6%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]32.7%

Bosh [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 2.2, 10.5%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]55.8%
Bosh [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 1.6, 8.0%[COLOR="white"] ...................[/COLOR]71.6%

Love [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (09'-14'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 2.5, 13.0%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]62.7%
Love [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR] [COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR]Lebron (15'-16'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 2.3, 11.4%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]80.0%

Mo Will [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (05'-08'):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 5.7, 30.2%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]39.2%
Mo Will [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR]... Lebron (09'-10'):[COLOR="white"]..[/COLOR] 4.6, 22.3%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]47.6%


FYI...

Pippen [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Jordan 91'-93':[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 6.5, 24.5%
Pippen [COLOR="Navy"]w/out[/COLOR] Jordan 94'-95':[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 5.4, 23.7%
Pippen [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Jordan 96'-98':[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 5.8, 25.1%



Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

Futhermore, the supporting cast's predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams, which causes them to routinely underperform and play undercapacity in the Finals (the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates played poorly when it mattered) - since Lebron's teammates play undercapacity against the best teams, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. It's because he employs a point guard style from the forward position - this adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates - he elevated teammates so the team played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.
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[ShawkFactory]

[Dr Hawk]

No matter how hard you try, Lebron > Jordan

[Smoke117]

This is just really pathetic...even for you. Wade's assist went down...nooooooo, really? You realize that Wade never liked having to handle the ball so much right? He was forced into the PG duties because there was no other option...he always wanted to play more off ball. The fact that he was hurt a lot also lowered his numbers, obviously.

The differences with these other guys is just idiotic...comparing guys like Bosh, Love, Mo, and Irving to before and after...all four guys were on shit teams where they could do whatever they pleased for the most part, so of course their assist numbers were higher. You are going to have the ball in your hands less when you play on a better team and especially with a player WHO IS BETTER THAN YOU. That's kind of how it works, genius.

[jlip]

Mods, seriously?

[3ball]

Lebron had 43,300 minutes entering the 2016 regular season.. Conservatively, if we assume Jordan's 3000 college minutes translates to 1000 NBA minutes, that means Jordan reached 43,300 minutes right before the 1998 playoffs.

Here's Jordan's 1998 playoff stats at 35 years old vs. Lebron's 2016 regular season stats at 30 years old:


[COLOR="Red"]JORDAN: 32.4 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 3.5 apg.. 2.1 tov.. 1.5 spg.. 0.6 bpg.. 46.2 fg.. 54.5 ts.. 117 ORtg.. 28.1 PER[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]LEBRON: 26.2 ppg.. 1.4 oreb.. 6.2 dreb.. 6.4 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.4 spg.. 0.6 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 56.9 ts.. 112 ORtg.. 27.4 PER[/COLOR]


Btw, Lebron's body is only 30 years old, and therefore better equipped to handle 43k minutes than MJ's much older, 35-year old body.. And obviously, MJ's superior stats are PLAYOFF stats, not early regular season like Lebron's.



Outside the paint, defender can sag off their man, UNTIL defender meets edge of paint


That's where defensive 3 seconds kicks in - since the paint blocks defenders from further sagging on all sides, today's defenders outside the paint aren't allowed to be further away from their man than previous eras... Previous eras were allowed to sag off their man to the edge of the paint as well (see image above) with the same 3 second limit inside the paint.

The only exception where today's defenders outside the paint are allowed to be a FURTHER distance from their man than previous eras is during "flooding". But flooding merely attempts to make today's concentration of strongside defenders equivalent to the un-spaced courts of previous eras, and therefore wasn't a viable strategy back then.. Flooding also wasn't viable because the unspaced courts of previous eras activated the NBA's legal paint-camping provision, which is a superior defensive tactic to flooding..



Inside the paint, today's defenders must "follow" their man

Today's defender must follow their man around the paint to stay within "armslength", per the defensive 3 seconds rule.

"Armslength" is much closer than the allowance in previous eras, where defenders could remain in the paint while their man was up to 3 feet outside the paint - so defenders could stand under the rim while their man was 8 feet away on the block, or 12 feet away below the FT line.

Today's defender can't do that - they must stand right next to their man in both cases to fulfill the "armslength" requirement... Accordingly, paint defenders in previous eras had more freedom - they didn't have "follow" their man to stay within armslength like today's defenders.




Unlike the aforementioned zone qualities of paint-camping where defenders can be far from their man, "armslength" is the exact opposite of a zone - infact, "armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. Nonetheless, this strict, no-zone policy governs today's defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.


If big men could still paint-camp under the rim while out of "armslength" of their man, that would be preferable to today's flooding, which requires the big man to leave the rim unprotected and contest guards outside the paint - extra rotations are necessary since the weakside is left a man down.

Paint camping has ALWAYS been a more equitable way to defend the court, since it doesn't leave the rim unprotected or require big men to contest guards on the perimeter, nor does it leave the weakside a man down or require extra rotations.

[Rose'sACL]

whatever lebron does, it makes the team into a really good offensive unit even when heat used to play at a slow pace because of their defense which was best suited for half court defense.

[TripleA]

So Lebron ball is good enough to become a top 2 team.

[TripleA]

How about Jordan is better than Lebron because he is better at basketball.
Truth bombs here.

[3ball]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Kobe won his rivalry with Duncan and defeated him in the clutch:[/COLOR]






[COLOR="DarkRed"]Otoh, Lebron choked in the clutch and missed the walk-off attempt - he needed Ray Allen to save him:[/COLOR]






[COLOR="DarkRed"]Naturally, Jordan MADE his walk-off attempt in his first meeting against Duncan/Popovich to send the game into overtime:[/COLOR]






[COLOR="DarkRed"]After hitting the walk-off, MJ dominated overtime, including 2 dunks over Duncan:[/COLOR]






[COLOR="Navy"]In his 2nd meeting against Duncan, MJ dominated Duncan even more thoroughly:[/COLOR]









It's obvious that Jordan only ever DOMINATED Duncan and guys like Duncan - they weren't "rivals" like they are for Kobe and Lebron.. :rolleyes.. 6/6






Here's the problem in the Orlando series - as always, Lebron's teammates played horribly, so they lost - who cares how about Lebron's stats if teammates can't play well while Lebron accumulates those stats.. If Lebron's teammates could play WELL alongside him, he'd be 6/6 already.

But it's impossible for teammates to play well when Lebron's presence significantly lowers their APG and PPG - this is statistical fact.. With teammates playing under capacity, the team plays under capacity and comes up short as the favorite, just like they did in 2009 and other years.

Since Lebron significantly reduces the PPG and APG of teammates, he doesn't elevate teammates, which is the hallmark of a great player.. This is why he isn't top 10 all time - you can't be top 10 all-time if teammates play worse alongside you and it leads to team underachievement.

Whereas MJ's teams never played below capacity or lost as the favorite, because he never got his stats at the expense of teammates - he never reduced the PPG or APG of teammates like Lebron did, yet his stats are still better than Lebron's - as the OP shows, MJ had higher PPG, APG, Steals, efficiency and of course, more rings.

Kobe had to do more with less. He wasn't as physically gifted as MJ so his skills needed to be on point. I do think that you can argue that he was the most skilled 2 guard ever.

This is subjective, depending on what your definition of "skills" is.





But what truly separated Jordan, was his shot-making ability inside 15 feet - unmatched in the history of the game.. Phil Jackson said something like "Oscar was amazing shotmaker in the paint, but MJ was by far the best of all time" or something pretty close to that.. he was talking about wing players.

As the GIF above shows, MJ made some things look so easy, you don't realize that's the best offense you've ever seen.

A lot of people think Lebron is a fantastic shotmaker in the paint, but he plays in the 3-point era, which opens up the middle of the floor by forcing defenders to occupy the 3-point line.. With the middle of the floor open, penetrators can beat perimeter defenders or mismatched shading bigs, and then face and open paint while defenders chase from behind and the sides.. This has inflated everyone's at-rim percentages - even Austin Rivers can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims:






Otoh, the middle of the floor remained crowded at all times in previous eras because no one shot 3-pointers - this forced wing players like MJ into a lot of mid-range pull-ups because the sheer number of players always standing in the paint frequently sealed the paint.





Also, it's evident that without 3-pointers in previous eras, there was no one spacing the weakside, so defenders could remain on the strongside, eliminating the need to flood.. With all defenders on the strongside, wing players must make plays in a smaller space.. Otoh, in today's game, the weakside is always spaced to reduce the number of strongside defenders and give players more room to make a play.

The above situation of overcrowded paints caused by lack of 3-point shooting/spacing, was exacerbated by legal-paint-camping, which was allowable under certain common conditions pre-2005.. Otoh, in today's game, the new defensive 3 seconds rule banned paint-camping and is designed to "open up the game" - according to the NBA, the absence of today's defensive 3 seconds rule would allow "frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.".. See 2nd last question:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...son/index.html

[TripleA]

His teams don't play equal-opportunity like all the teams that beat him do (Spurs, Warriors, 2011 Mavs).. His ball-dominance won't allow equal-opportunity and the best brand of basketball, so equal or less-talented teams can pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

He lost in 2014 because his team could not stop the Spurs offense not that his offense was bad. Also in 2009 it was defense. He was incredible offensively and 2011 he was trash in the finals .

[Rose'sACL]

His ball-dominance doesn't allow his teams to run optimal equal-opportunity offenses like all the teams that beat him do (Spurs, Warriors, 2011 Mavs)..

Since his ball-dominance doesn't allow the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented teams can pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

what optimal offense? heat lost 2014 finals because of their poor defense and lol at using 2011 and 2009.

[Smoke117]

so why didn't Pippen's assists go down alongisde MJ - Pippen's assists went UP alongisde MJ.

everyone else's cratered alongside lebron..... but somehow pippen's went UP alongside Jordan and DOWN when Jordan wasn't there... hmmm....

what is it about mj's presence that made it easier for Pippen to get an assist... hmmmm... that's a tough one boss.. ahem... off-ball.. ahem
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...because they slowed down the offense and there were less fast break opportunities, for one. Replacing Michael Jordan with Pete Myers obviously didn't help. Doesn't take a genius to realize you are going to get more assist passing the rock to Jordan and not Pete Myers. Comparing these guys to Scottie Pippen is just idiotic. The circumstances are not even close to the same.

[3ball]

MJ vs Lebron prime vs. prime stats:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=387520


percentage of team points while on the floor - jordan monster in 4th

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=392376


jordan most double-teamed player everr

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=386210


No seriously - this is a foul

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=391306


today's defender must follow their man:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...=390393&page=2

lol at using 2011 and 2009.

lol at your beta denials of the facts... It's a statistical fact that ball-dominators travel the shortest distances during games despite having the highest time of possession (meaning they stand around a super-ton).

In Lebron's case, his low-assisted, ball-dominance comes from the forward position, so it's in ADDITION to the point guard - he turns a normally high-assisted, frontcourt position into a low-assisted, ball-dominant position.. This extra position of low-assisted, ball-dominance lowers his team's assist frequency relative to his peers.

Furthermore, the extra position of low-assisted, ball-dominance that Lebron adds to every team eliminates any chance of his teams running an equal-opportunity offense or the playing best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented teams to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to put up numbers.



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All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
[COLOR="Indigo"]8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals[/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
[COLOR="Indigo"]5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals[/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
[COLOR="Green"]4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals[/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
[COLOR="Indigo"]6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals[/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 1
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
[COLOR="DarkRed"]5 players, 11 appearances = 2/6 in Finals[/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
[COLOR="black"]3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals [/COLOR]




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
[COLOR="Red"]1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals[/COLOR]
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[TripleA]

Your actually stupid 3brick he lost because of defense in 2009 and 2014. He played like trash in 2011. Have you played basketball or watched it in your life you dumb nerd.