Most effective signature move of this generation?

[BuffaloBill]

lol @ mentioning duncan on offense.. a pure in the flow opportunistic scorer whose never taken over a game with dominant scoring in his life.

Surely you jest.



It's unfortunate how many people there are here who never watched Duncan play in his prime.

[DMAVS41]

A mindless Kobe stan would take 20 points on lesser efficiency, and from further away from the basket, than 27 ppg from the greatest power forward of all time on higher efficiency. I don't normally resort to name calling, but dude that's idiotic. It's not a sound decision basketball-wise. We're talking about somebody who lead the Spurs offensively for 4 championships and a key cog for a fifth and was a best offensively (anybody with eyes witnessed it).

Duncan is far less efficient than Dirk on offense though. So where are you getting more efficient?

And the further away from the basket thing is a positive... Not a negative. Not sure what you are talking about here.

[SCdac]

Duncan absolutely dominated offensively in his prime - you could run your entire offense through him on the block.

See the 1999 Finals - he averaged 27.4 PPG in a series that had an 86 pace and Spurs only averaged 85 PPG.. He did a similar thing in the 2003 Finals and he took over tons of playoff series with dominant post play.

Agreed. These people have no idea what they're talking about at best or at worst willfully forgetting for the sake of fawning over advanced stats or what seems most 'aesthetically pleasing'.

Duncan dropped 50+ points on the Mavs one time (what other PF's have done that to them in this era?). In like his 3rd season he dropped 46 points on Karl Malone's Jazz. Went toe to toe with prime Shaq numerous times. Has huge scoring series for a very slow paced team - and Duncan wasn't selfish either. And he didn't need three's to be a dangerous scorer, he'd score in your face, in the paint, high percentage buckets. In his prime he dunked significantly more than he does now and has always had midrange capability. His scoring for his position is multiple-championship, All-NBA teams, HOF calibre... not just "really good" as some would put it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgUQWV1H3aA

The Spurs offense for the longest time was... "dump the ball into Timmy"

[tpols]

A mindless Kobe stan would take 20 points on lesser efficiency, and from further away from the basket, than 27 ppg from the greatest power forward of all time on higher efficiency. I don't normally resort to name calling, but dude that's idiotic. It's not a sound decision basketball-wise. We're talking about somebody who lead the Spurs offensively for 4 championships and a key cog for a fifth and was a best offensively (anybody with eyes witnessed it).

I hate to break it to you man.. but duncan hasn't led anything offensively in over a decade. And before that.. spurs were winning with tough grind it out defense mostly.

From 2000 to 2014 duncan's offensive rapm was a 2.0.

Manus was like a 6 and Parker's was higher as well. Manu was the mid 2000s spurs closer, parker late 2000s and most recently kawhi has been the Spurs takeover player. It isn't even debateable that prime manu was twice the offensive force duncan was..

duncan belongs nowhere near this discussion of atg offense.

[SCdac]

Duncan is far less efficient than Dirk on offense though. So where are you getting more efficient?

And the further away from the basket thing is a positive... Not a negative. Not sure what you are talking about here.

What's generally a higher percentage shot, a slam dunk/lay up or a three pointer? ... I'm gonna venture to say we have fundamentally different views of 'value per position' and what winning basketball generally entails on a micro and macro level. Which in many ways is normal, you're a Dirk stan so obviously you're enamored by stretch-4's and three pointers. I'm not a Duncan stan however, I just recognize greatness when I see it. Duncan is the GOAT PF and not just because of defense. He was a force offensively, it's undeniable.

[DMAVS41]

I hate to break it to you man.. but duncan hasn't led anything offensively in over a decade. And before that.. spurs were winning with tough grind it out defense mostly.

From 2000 to 2014 duncan's offensive rapm was a 2.0.

Manus was like a 6 and Parker's was higher as well. Manu was the mid 2000s spurs closer, parker late 2000s and most recently kawhi has been the Spurs takeover player. It isn't even debateable that prime manu was twice the offensive force duncan was..

duncan belongs nowhere near this discussion of atg offense.

While I'm not nearly as low on Duncan offensively.... tpols is closer to the truth than someone putting Duncan above Dirk and even with Shaq offensively.

Thank god for objective measures that cut through bias.

[r15mohd]

gonna go with the one which the NBA had to apply the rule change too:

-AI's killer crossover


then there's Shaq's dropstep, Wade's eurostep...now it's KD's FT move, the swing through or whatever you call it

[DMAVS41]

What's generally a higher percentage shot, a slam dunk/lay up or a three pointer? ... I'm gonna venture to say we have fundamentally different views of 'value per position' and what winning basketball generally entails on a micro and macro level. Which in many ways is normal, you're a Dirk stan so obviously you're enamored by stretch-4's and three pointers. I'm not a Duncan stan however, I just recognize greatness when I see it. Duncan is the GOAT PF and not just because of defense. He was a force offensively, it's undeniable.

Dirk is more efficient than Duncan on offense. It's a fact... Not an opinion.

It's also a fact that Dirk's range shooting combined with his post game and elite ft shooting opened things up for his teammates and put defenses in tougher spots than Duncan's traditional post/elbow game did.

LOL... You are coming off horribly here and are a giant Duncan Stan....and continue to straw man my argument.

I'll say it again for you...Duncan was a beast on offense... He just wasn't as good as Dirk or Shaq. Sorry....

Telling me I don't recognize the greatness of a player I rank higher than you all time and have repeatedly called a beast and force on offense. But yea... I'm a hater because I don't pretend Duncan was better than he actually was offensively.


Please provide some evidence...

[SCdac]

From 2000 to 2014 duncan's offensive rapm was a 2.0.

Are cherry picked advanced stats like this really supposed to mean something outside of statistical rankings though (i.e., fantasy basketball, where a great player like Shaq or Dwight Howard can get picked in the 2nd or 3rd round based on stats alone, and a player like Shawn Marion was literally going #1 in the mid-2000s based on his statistical versatility)? It's not a replacement for actually watching the games and watching Tim Duncan in his prime go up against Shaq, Malone, Garnett, Wallace's, Dirk, etc... and win multiple championships as the offensive leader.. Boxscore watching isn't a replacement. and yes, I have been watching Duncan... he was probably the best Spur this season in the playoffs at age 39

[SCdac]

Dirk is more efficient than Duncan on offense. It's a fact... Not an opinion.

It's also a fact that Dirk's range shooting combined with his post game and elite ft shooting opened things up for his teammates and put defenses in tougher spots than Duncan's traditional post/elbow game did.

LOL... You are coming off horribly here and are a giant Duncan Stan....and continue to straw man my argument.

I'll say it again for you...Duncan was a beast on offense... He just wasn't as good as Dirk or Shaq. Sorry....

I'll ask again, what's generally a higher percentage basket a dunk/layup or a three pointer?

[DMAVS41]

I'll ask again, what's generally a higher percentage basket a dunk/layup or a three pointer?

Why generally? This is Dirk... He's not a "generally" type player.

Terrible question, but you already know that.

The real question is who scored more, more efficiently, more clutch, better at the line, and caused more problems for defenses.

And that would clearly be Dirk.

Where is your evidence?????

[r15mohd]

Why generally? This is Dirk... He's not a "generally" type player.

Terrible question, but you already know that.

The real question is who scored more, more efficiently, more clutch, better at the line, and caused more problems for defenses.

And that would clearly be Dirk.

Where is your evidence?????

hard to go against 15yrs of dominance with TD...Dirk is exciting, but the further away, the bigger the risk, as SCdac mentioned. if Dirk was so significantly greater, the Mavs would have much more success than they do now, especially when compared to the Spurs

[DMAVS41]

hard to go against 15yrs of dominance with TD...Dirk is exciting, but the further away, the bigger the risk, as SCdac mentioned. if Dirk was so significantly greater, the Mavs would have much more success than they do now, especially when compared to the Spurs

We are talking offense only.

Duncan is my 4th best player and Dirk is not in my top 10.

Further away the bigger risk has no meaning here. Dirk was factually a more efficient offensive player. Do you guys not get this?

He scored more and more efficiently... Was better in crunch time and caused more problems for opposing defenses with his vastly more versatile offense.

LOL

Seriously... Go take a look.

You will find Dirk scoring more, more efficiently, in more ways, better in the clutch, better on game winning situations...you will see a superior rapm (way better than biased eye tests) and a better offensive rating. There really isn't much left, but the nail in the coffin is the far superior off ball impact Dirk had. He'd routinely get doubled/trapped 28 feet from the basket with and without the ball. That off ball impact is enormous and doesn't even show up in individual measures.

[Legends66NBA7]

Shaq's elbow is the most dominating signature move of all-time.

Shame it took 6 pages and post 89 to get a mention.