Points are points right? If the ball ends up in the basket does it matter how?

[Kblaze8855]

I guess it doesnt. The scoreboard doesnt know the difference. And yet......when I watch this I swoon:













When id watch the Kings play....im out of my seat....

















Watching the spurs I have literally had kids stop what they are doing and come watch replays of things like:























And to make it more modern you have to respect:























Yet when I watch this:
















I dont know what to do with it. I dont know how to process what happened.



I may respect the talent it takes to make it work 12 times in a game. But still.....my group of crusty old friends with bad knees all sit there cringing through the cigar smoke of my livingroom like:
















Simple question.


Is it wrong to care how the ball got into the basket when evaluating a players ability to put it there? Does caring how "pretty" it is or how it makes you feel make you more concerned with the superficial than the substance of the matter?

Is it possible the "purists" are the ones worried about shit that doesnt matter to the bottom line?

[eliteballer]

The variance is the beauty of the game...it really depends on the player doing it and the situation in addition to the play itself.

If Harden or Durant break the offense and say "fck it..we need a bucket and I'm getting it" then I can let it slide.

Some scrub out of their depth? Completely different situation.

[Kblaze8855]

Everyone breaks the offense when needed. But some....that way is the offense. Though I think Hardens style stands out more now than it would have at times. He plays one man army ball now that teams have the depth and shooting not to require it.

Even bad NBA teams have a lot of people who can score if only because of the spacing and rules.

[3ball]

Teams that score off ball movement and high team assists (curry, duncan) win more and generally beat teams that use more ball-dominance and low team assists to score (lebron/harden)

For this reason, the best players that have dominant skill sets OUTSIDE of ball-dominance are > ball-dominators (and win more/higher team ceiling/easier to build around), all else being equal

[Manny98]

That Curry off ball movement completely losing his defender in that gif

[tpols]

thats why we always harp on stats like team assists and total passes made (when tracked)

it's obvious that moving the ball as much as possible will result in offense that tires a defense out quicker than one or two guys monopolizing, no matter how well they score because theyll eventually lose pace.

[SomeBlackDude]

When id watch the Kings play....im out of my seat....

one of my favorite all time squads to watch play. everyone from 1-5 was a great passer at their position. too bad they got jobbed out of a 'ship.

'14 spurs were great too. just a less athletic, less dynamic version of the kings.

[TheCorporation]

That Curry off ball movement completely losing his defender in that gif

That was pretty wild

[Ben Simmons 25]

It does matter and here's why it matters.

In that instance? Of course, 2 points = 2 points. 3 points = 3 points. There's no disputing that. Even over small sample sizes, this still rings true.

However, what the Harden example fails to really show you is that when defenses tighten up and nerves tighten up, those shots become less efficient than they would be in regular season "no stress" situations.

On top of that, the detrimental intangible effect that is thrust upon an entire team by the other 4 guys on the court standing and watching one guy do all the work, either through morale or because they start to expect him to always do it or some combination of the two, also yields less optimal results over time.

So... to answer your question in the most direct way possible... in the short term, it doesn't matter at all. It's the exact same. Keep repeating the process over the long term? The iso ball kills teams... or at the least, makes them less optimal versions of themselves. That's the best I can sum up it.

Not to mention, as tpols said, the impact it has on the opposing team. If they have to chase everyone all over the floor, there will be better results for your own team on both the offensive and defensive ends of the ball, as you've run the other team into the dirt energy wise and that's another advantage that compounds more and more over time.

[Kblaze8855]

It does matter and here's why it matters.

In that instance? Of course, 2 points = 2 points. 3 points = 3 points. There's no disputing that. Even over small sample sizes, this still rings true.

However, what the Harden example fails to really show you is that when defenses tighten up and nerves tighten up, those shots become less efficient than they would be in regular season "no stress" situations.

On top of that, the detrimental intangible effect that is thrust upon an entire team by the other 4 guys on the court standing and watching one guy do all the work, either through morale or because they start to expect him to always do it or some combination of the two, also yields less optimal results over time.

So... to answer your question in the most direct way possible... in the short term, it doesn't matter at all. It's the exact same. Keep repeating the process over the long term? The iso ball kills teams... or at the least, makes them less optimal versions of themselves. That's the best I can sum up it.

Not to mention, as tpols said, the impact it has on the opposing team. If they have to chase everyone all over the floor, there will be better results for your own team on both the offensive and defensive ends of the ball, as you've run the other team into the dirt energy wise and that's another advantage that compounds more and more over time.

I suppose it comes down to a point of view. Is a game a series of individual plays with one desired outcome...score....or is it one entity that is best served by a style that may generate more long term points and easier ones at that?

If the Rockets win the title with Harden playing 1-5 maybe 40% of the time we may well see more of it. And would it be wrong?

[LoneyROY7]

Harden is able to play this style successfully mainly because of two reasons...his ability to get to the rim at virtually any moment + his masterful ballhandling skills.

Here's a example from last night's game (time-stamped): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkzt7tqmxno&t=2m16s

He maintains his dribble while floating around multiple defenders, and when the time is right, he bursts past his chosen victim while he finishing around 3 other onlookers.

Just pure basketball talent. Very few in the history of the game are capable of playing this style and doing it successfully.

[sdot_thadon]

It's a matter of taste honetly. I can overlook the beauty, or lack thereof if it's consistent to the point you know it's not a fluke. Even down to the individual level where you had guys like Marion or Jamison that had pretty ugly games but you couldn't deny their talent.

[Ben Simmons 25]

I suppose it comes down to a point of view. Is a game a series of individual plays with one desired outcome...score....or is it one entity that is best served by a style that may generate more long term points and easier ones at that?

If the Rockets win the title with Harden playing 1-5 maybe 40% of the time we may well see more of it. And would it be wrong?

Yeah... and I think you have to view the games as "single entities" as you put it that are best served by a style that generates bigger point discrepancies long term that are easier... I think you actually have to view them as more than single entities also... you have to view them as entire seasons or more, in some instances...

And I think you have to view it that way because... human beings aren't robots. They have emotions which impact their play and they only have so much energy to give before their performance dips over time. Anything that hinders a team whatsoever in any way shape or form, emotionally or psychologically, has to be viewed as less than optimal long term.





And it would be wrong because James Harden travels on the majority of his step back plays, or at the very least... takes advantage of the rules to the extent that the very spirit of why the rules were instilled in the first place becomes violated.

Something also has to be done about the way he draws fouls. And something has to be done about him initiating contact, throwing his head backwards like he just got decked by Apollo Creed, and then getting a foul call...

James Harden would not be an MVP level player if he wasn't able to so masterfully exploit the rules. He would still be top 10 or bordering top 10 annually because of his ability to blow by people... So there's a certain level here in which he must be admired because of how well he does it, but at the same time it's disgusting because it goes against the very nature of competitive, level playing field sports.

Now... imagine a league in which 90% of the players did "step backs"(travels) like he does, initiated contact and were able to consistently sell fouls like he does... I literally wouldn't watch. Oh I want to vomit just thinking about how unappealing that would be.

[Ben Simmons 25]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_z5Ro6bSSQ

James Harden is a disgusting, vile piece of shit.

You know... we all sit here and we act tough and talk shit about players... say stuff we'd never say to their face not in a million years... cause in most cases we'd be star struck if we ever met them...

But I'm telling you... I'm trying to tell you... if I ever came across this dude I would straight up tell him what a gigantic piece of garbage he is and how incredibly disgusted I am to ever watch him play. He really is a f[COLOR="Black"]uc[/COLOR]king fa[COLOR="Black"]gg[/COLOR]ot.

[LoneyROY7]

Yeah... and I think you have to view the games as "single entities" as you put it that are best served by a style that generates bigger point discrepancies long term that are easier... I think you actually have to view them as more than single entities also... you have to view them as entire seasons or more, in some instances...

And I think you have to view it that way because... human beings aren't robots. They have emotions which impact their play and they only have so much energy to give before their performance dips over time. Anything that hinders a team whatsoever in any way shape or form, emotionally or psychologically, has to be viewed as less than optimal long term.





And it would be wrong because James Harden travels on the majority of his step back plays, or at the very least... takes advantage of the rules to the extent that the very spirit of why the rules were instilled in the first place becomes irrelevant.

Something also has to be done about the way he draws fouls and the way he creates space stepping back. And something has to be done about him initiating contact, throwing his head backwards like he just got decked by Apollo Creed, and then getting a foul call...

James Harden would not be an MVP level player if he wasn't able to so masterfully exploit the rules. He would still be top 10 annually or close to it because of his ability to blow by people... So there's a certain level here in which he must be admired because of how well he does it, but at the same time it's disgusting because it goes against the very nature of competitive, level playing field sports.

Now... imagine a league in which 90% of the players did "step backs"(travels) like he does, initiated contact and were able to consistently sell fouls like he does... I literally wouldn't watch. Oh I want to vomit just thinking about how unappealing that would be.

You just broke down your entire point right there.

Harden's ability to blow by people is the primary facilitator to his dominance. He breaks down a team's defensive structure almost immediately by constantly being able to get past his initial defender...the big/wing is forced to help, leaving either and open roll man or an open jumpshot. Or individually, he's just gonna get any shot he wants. An inability to "masterfully exploit rules" isn't changing any of that.

Quickness is probably the biggest game-breaking talent in basketball, of which Harden has in droves...combined with unseemly strength for his size, top 2 ballhandling skills in the game, and elite body control. No rule changes are impacting that skillset. Sorry bud.

They made the "Harden Rule" two years ago and he won the MVP the following season, He's now averaging the most since MJ. Rule changes ain't stop sh*t.