Is Anyone Still Sleeping On Manu Ginobili?

[ralph_i_el]

My bad cuzzo.

I'm talking about this thread I made over a month ago that stirred up quite the debate (here's the OP from that thread):

Why Is Manu So Underrated?

Just curious...

Manu Ginobili is a 3x NBA Champion (so far), has 1 Olympic Gold Medal, 2 FIBA Gold Medals, was the Italian League & Euroleague Finals MVP, a 2x NBA All Star ('05&'11), and the 2008 NBA Sixth Man of The Year.

So why in the world is he NEVER considered to be not only one of, IF NOT THE 2ND BEST SG OF HIS ERA, but routinely isn't even considered one of the TOP BEST SG's in the NBA?

You could make his health a major reason why but in comparison:
Games Played:
Manu Ginobili ('02-now): 664
Dwyane Wade ('03-now):594

70 games is the difference (which is nearly an NBA season which is exactly how much longer Manu has been in the NBA over Dwyane Wade).

And this is not a knock on Wade but a simple fact, Wade has 1 NBA Championship (so far), 1 Olympic Gold Medal (so far), 1 NBA Finals MVP, 8x NBA All Star but is routinely ranked as the 2nd best SG of his era (behind Kobe) and usually 3-5 All Time ranking behind Jordan, Kobe, West, and Drexler.

Speaking of which, here's a comparison of Ginobili's stats against those SG's who are routinely ranked higher than him:


Manu Ginobili: Stats

Dwyane Wade: Stats

Jerry West: Stats

Clyde Drexler: Stats

As you can see, he has won more NBA titles (3) than each of the above (1) and his numbers are VERY COMPARABLE even though he NEVER put up more than 13 FG's/ game during the regular season while his Playoffs/ Finals numbers hold there own against these guys EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NEVER THE 1ST OPTION ON HIS TEAM which directly affects his PPG totals (as well as others) which most will use as a crutch to claim he wasn't as good as the other SG's.

How come Manu Ginobili is not as highly ranked as other SG's, presently or all time?

He is so underrated...smooth lefty, great handles, crafty, excellent shooter, innovator of the "Euro-step", great finisher, and more clutch than Drexler ever was while arguably just as or even more clutch than D Wade and Jerry West.

There is a case to be made that he in fact is the 3rd best SG of All Time or at least Top 5 All Time.

I love manu and his game is just great to watch but you are doing him a disservice by overrating him like that. Top top 10 i'll give you

[Pushxx]

Just entering this thread to remind everyone of the existence of Sam Jones and George Gervin.

Oh and respect to Manu. Top 15 SG all time.

[Kblaze8855]

LOL... cry me a river man

In a topic about a spurs fan who has been complaining about where one of the most universally praised players of his era is ranked...thats funny.

Ginobili is an all-time great player, regardless of specific placement.

Hes an all time great player like Jeff Hornacek, Byron Scott, or Jojo White are.

Him being compared to great players is hardly an insult

Him being called better than Jerry West, Wade, and many others is.

don't let overzealous fans change your opinion of a proven winner (internationally).

Manu winning games on teams that should win games means little to me. Nor does beating team usa with a team with 6 nba players on it. I watched Carlos Arroyo do that with a team full of rejects.

My respect for Manu is from his skills and his approach t othe game. Hes a star talent who takes a role players role 90% of the time because its best for his team. I respect it. But im not giving him credit for being what I think he probably could when ive not seen it.

He'll probably be a HOF'er and his jersey will one day be up in the AT&T Center.

Neither of those mean anything to me. The HOF is full of players who dont justify half the love Manu gets from some especially considering the international side which does a lot to justify his HOF status. Id probably vote for him by the way.

If this was James Harden going off tonight, this board would be going all crazy in the way you remember the board going off for Manu (though prime Manu was better)... But when it's an accomplished player doing it, we should be up in arms when he gets recognition or is called underappreciated?

Up in arms? How dramatic.

Im not the one making a big deal of a somewhat star player having 26 points.

Im not trying to prevent its discussion either. not like I deleted the topic or anything.

I just find it odd to be asking if anyone is still sleeping on an all star who had a...pretty good...but not great..game.

Hes been well known for 10 years. Hes been compared to all time NBA Mt.Rushmore type players.

A game like last night is hardly even noteworthy for a player on the level hes said to be by many.

watch some of his game film.

Considering that I dont think ive missed a spurs playoff game since he started...and I watch all national tv games for the most part...and the olympics/and WCs..

Ive probably seen Manu play 300 or more times. As have we all.

Hes a mystery to nobody who cares about basketball.

this dude (manu) has intangible game and gives 100% effort off the ball. You don't get that from many of the SG's today, the Kevin Martins, Monta Ellis's, and Michael Finley's. a quiet game from Manu can still have a surprisingly big impact.

Which has what to do with anything?

Has anything ive said about him ever suggested I dont think hes a very good player and likely better than his numbers?

[Booz Vivic]

Manu was drafted with like pick nr. 50 or something no way he will be GOAT

[BallsOut]

Just entering this thread to remind everyone of the existence of Sam Jones and George Gervin.

Oh and respect to Manu. Top 15 SG all time.

There are definitely not 14 better SGs than Manu. He's top 10 in my book.

[1987_Lakers]

Hes an all time great player like Jeff Hornacek, Byron Scott, or Jojo White are.

Comparing Scott to Ginobili is an insult to Manu. Scott could only dream of having the ball handling, slashing, passing ability of Manu.

[Smoke117]

Is anyone sleeping on him in what way? This is his 10th season in the league we already pretty much know what he can do already. And no, He is not better than Wade, West or Drexler. That is just complete and utter nonsense.

[Kblaze8855]

All true. Doesnt mean Manu actually does a whole lot more game to game.

Of the 4 at issue in that quote...

Manu has probably done the second most.

There is a huge list of players history wont remember who are gonna perform about as well as manu night to night.

If you swap out Kendall Gill, Jalen Rose, Rolondo Blackman, Sleepy floyd, or even Kenny smith in their primes for Manu...the spurs dont just stop being the Spurs.

Hes important.

Hes not a make or break player. Hes a great guard to have on a great team. But hes gonna just drop 9 quiet points and not stand out far more often than a player on the level hes suggested to be.

Even in games they need a spark. It just doesnt come up because hes not expected to really go hard all the time the way stars are. Little is expected of him which is exactly why a game that Jalen Rose could and has topped in the finals is drawing praise.

Manus game last night is of note for a guy like him. Or harden. Or...Rip Hamilton. Hersey Hawkins on the sonics maybe. Derek Harper on the Knicks?

But really...its rare as hell that Manu just owns a game.

can it be said its because he doesnt try?

Sure. I watched his 48 point game vs the suns like everyone else.

But not trying to force it doesnt make what he does night to night more than it is.

Manu on a pretty normal night...he isnt gonna do a lot that Brent Barry in Clippers/Bulls/Sonics form didnt. He plays better defense. But really...night to night?

Isnt like one is lighting the world on fire and the other is a no show.

Manus average performance is probably like a 6. Brents a 5.

[SCdac]

It's people that overrate the shit out of him (like the OP) that make you guys jaded when it comes to Manu.

At the end of the day, Manu has had a much better, winning, career than guys like Carter, Arenas, Roy, Hamilton, J. Johnson, Finley, etc.

When you realize who Manu is better than... it's hardly an insult to regard him as an all-time great SG.

Ginobili almost beat a prime Tim Duncan for Finals MVP against one of the toughest defensive teams ever (2005 Pistons).

Very integral player, and everyone who watches the Spurs knows it... hence the "two man game" kind of commentary.

[Kblaze8855]

It's people that overrate the shit out of him (like the OP) that make you guys jaded when it comes to Manu.

I dont think I am jaded at all. I like Manu. I was talking about him last night during the game with my people. But im not gonna act like a guy who goes straight invisible so often and even his big games are just average all star play is more than he is.

At the end of the day, Manu has had a much better, winning, career than guys like Carter, Arenas, Roy, Hamilton, J. Johnson, Finley, etc.

Here is the issue...

When you spend your career with a guy who had 2 rings before you were even a noteworthy player and won like 60-62 games the season before you arrived? A guy who was probably as good as or better than anyone at his position ever by his 3rd season?

People just arent gonna say what you won makes you better than others.

Manu is either todays Sam Jones or todays John Havlicek. Neither is an insult. And really...both were far more highly regarded in their days than manu in his.

But Sam just wont get Jerry West credit even if he was the leading scorer on like 5 title teams and hit series and title winning shots at a rate thats kinda absurd if you really look into it.....

When you realize who Manu is better than... it's hardly an insult to regard him as an all-time great SG.

Totally depends on what all time great is.

Ginobili almost beat a prime Tim Duncan for Finals MVP against one of the toughest defensive teams ever (2005 Pistons).

If he had it wouldnt mean anything. Nobody discredits Tim over who wins a finals MVP when he clearly doesnt care. Manu would just join Cornbread, Jojo, dumars, Parker, and a few others as finals MVPs who dont really justify a ranking among the best all time. And I say that with a great respect for several of those players for the record.

But....any single series award is just easy to get a non major player to win. You only need 2-3 nice moments to get it.

Very integral player, and everyone who watches the Spurs knows it... hence the "two man game" kind of commentary.

Im quite sure I could find similar things said of Tony around 07 or 08 or when he was dropping 55 on teams or getting MVP talk earlier this year.

That team has always been Duncan plus depth. The depth is often legit good player. Stars. But Parker and Manu? neither really pulled away for that 32 spot.

And now that duncan has willingly stepped back it feels more like Parker took the controls more than Manu.

Which im sure Manu doesnt care about. Just wants the Ws. which can be admired these days with all the diva stars dying for fame.

But...really.

The Spurs win as a group. As they should. They play the right way.

[SCdac]

Manu on a pretty normal night...he isnt gonna do a lot that Brent Barry in Clippers/Bulls/Sonics form didnt. He plays better defense. But really...night to night?

Isnt like one is lighting the world on fire and the other is a no show.

Manus average performance is probably like a 6. Brents a 5.

Ginobili is a much better player than Brent Barry.

Hell you once said Manu is flat out better than Reggie Miller.

Manu averaged 16 PPG in his third season (not close to one of his best seasons)... Barry averaged 16 PPG... never.

Barry is probably a better three points shooter (even though Manu is the best three point shooter for Spurs all-time), that's about it.

[Kblaze8855]

Manu is better than Brent Barry.

Manu does not contribute much more on a nightly basis than Brent Barry did in his prime.

They are not the same thing.

Also...Brent Barry in his prime on a team like the current Bulls or Heat....a team that got him some air time? He would have been loved. He was breaking ankles, throwing up Dr.J layups, banging on bigmen, and throwing passes the likes of which Manu gets top 10 plays of the year for.

Give Brent Barry some defense and manus confidence he would have been a star. But he was too happy to play a role.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXg-k_1NGMY

I kinda miss him though.

You cant watch that and not see a lot of skill and athletic ability. And he was one of the best shooters in the league.

And his best play didnt even get seen.

His brief run on the Bulls he probably produced as many realy highlights as any Bull post Jordan other than Rose.

[SCdac]

Im quite sure I could find similar things said of Tony around 07 or 08 or when he was dropping 55 on teams or getting MVP talk earlier this year.

Oh I'm sure you can find articles talking up Parker, people holding him in high regard. Doesn't take anything away from Manu, who has at times heard "MVP" chants at the AT&T center. Manu is more integral to the team IMO. Parker teamed with Duncan can put up 26 PPG in the first round, but without Manu, Spurs don't get out of the first round (see: 2009). Look at last season when Manu broke his arm and wasn't playing up to par, Spurs get ousted. No doubt Manu is a make or break player for the Spurs. Since his rookie season he's had a big impact on the Spurs.

Here's a little segment on Manu as a rookie...

Stephen Jackson: "He's got the same mentality as I have - we are never scared"

Malik Rose: "He has alot of moves and instincts you can't teach"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7mBwUrD_A8

[Kblaze8855]

The spurs got knocked out 6 times with Manu.....one of them partly because he made one of the worst fouls ive ever seen on Dirk...not that the entire L is just his fault. Just...mentioning it.

Far as Manu vs Parker....eh. Year to year. I think Parker has been more reliable night to night though. but he doesnt have the attention grabbing highs like Manu. Not as many at least. But hes been pretty steady for like 8 years.

[SCdac]

Manu is better than Brent Barry.

Manu does not contribute much more on a nightly basis than Brent Barry did in his prime.

They are not the same thing.

Also...Brent Barry in his prime on a team like the current Bulls or Heat....a team that got him some air time? He would have been loved. He was breaking ankles, throwing up Dr.J layups, banging on bigmen, and throwing passes the likes of which Manu gets top 10 plays of the year for.

Give Brent Barry some defense and manus confidence he would have been a star. But he was too happy to play a role.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXg-k_1NGMY

I kinda miss him though.

You cant watch that and not see a lot of skill and athletic ability. And he was one of the best shooters in the league.

And his best play didnt even get seen.

His brief run on the Bulls he probably produced as many realy highlights as any Bull post Jordan other than Rose.

Brent Barry was a great player, I like him, he got all the minutes in the world on some of his teams --- and is still not as good as Manu (on a night by night basis, week by week, or month by month).

If we're measuring just primes it's not even close IMO.

Barry was destined to be a role player and that's about it... (he backed up Manu on the Spurs).

Manu has legitimate All-Star potential and probably takes a team further on his own.

Just the fact that we're comparing Manu to Brent Barry, to me, speaks volumes about how underrated he is IMO.... and I'm well aware of Brent's skills and talents.