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Old 03-10-2007, 11:18 PM   #181
Loki
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

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Originally Posted by GMATCallahan
As for Jordan going by K.J. off the dribble in the late eighties, in that article that I posted, Jordan said that Game Three of the '93 Finals marked the first time that K.J. had ever guarded him. Now, K.J. might have picked Jordan up in transition or on a switch before, but I'll take Air at his word about K.J. never being assigned to him prior to that triple-overtime epic.

No, I meant on isolated plays/switches. I've never seen KJ assigned to him either prior to that, and I have a ton of games on tape.
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:18 PM   #182
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

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Originally Posted by nashistheman
what is this about a 72 year old marliey in 2001 the guy is only 42. I just had to point that out.

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Old 03-10-2007, 11:19 PM   #183
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

yeah, what an idiot, that was an hyperbole

nashistheman = smokee.
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:22 PM   #184
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

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Originally Posted by Loki
I saw your posts saying that he didn't "shut him down," but I ask you: what are the implications of Air Seth's post (which you agreed with and later defended), which stated "I guess you forgot what KJ did to Jordan in the '93 Finals, then." What did he do, exactly? Hold him to 39 ppg on 49% shooting? Does that jibe with the tone of that quote?



You think it's a coincidence that Jordan's one sub-50% shooting game of the series (52.5% in the series excluding that game) came in a triple-OT thriller? Think it's a coincidence that he finished game 3 hitting just 6 of his last 20 shot attempts after going 13-23 from the floor against KJ through the first 3 quarters? And at least 9-10 of those 20 shots came in the final 2 OT's. Fatigue played a huge role, as much as you'd like to think otherwise.




How is 39 ppg on 49% not "at will"? And I never said that Jordan constantly took KJ off the dribble (how could he when, on top of KJ being 5" shorter, he was handchecking/pushing Jordan on most of his drive attempts?), only that he did so "occasionally."




No, I definitely disagree with him on that count (about the series being in question). I was talking about KJ's performance vs. Jordan specifically, where he has taken a measured stance which is respectable. His stance does not have the same implications that Air Seth's original post (the one that you defended) does.

My point about the fatigue, though, is that most players' legs become tired in the fourth quarter and overtime, and their jumpers start missing. That's where they have to take the ball to the basket, but K.J. curtailed that option for Jordan, forcing Air to shoot jumpers instead. K.J.'s defense forced Jordan into lower percentage shots, especially given the time of the game. Also, even in Game Six, Jordan "only" shot .500 from the field, which was below his usual .520-.530-and-up range in the NBA Finals to that point.

Regarding Jordan's driving game, K.J. may have used hand-checking (a legal maneuver back then and a tactic that Jordan also employed), but the main reason for his success in that area was his ability to move his feet and employ his lateral quickness.

And again, overall Jordan scored consistently on K.J., but not quite as consistently as he had against others in the NBA Finals in the early nineties. Whether shooting a bit below 50% constitutes "at will" scoring merely depends on one's perspective and the relative context. The point is that Jordan was a machine either way, but K.J. made that machine hum at a slightly lower roar, thus giving the Suns a chance to win the series. There's no way that K.J. could turn off the machine, of course. As I said, it's like the Bill Russell-versus-Wilt Chamberlain matchup: make the superstar work a little harder for his points and hunker down everywhere else.

As for the series being in question, we may be looking at it from different angles, but you have to admit that it came within an eyelash of a Game Seven in Phoenix. The Suns were leading 98-94 with less than a minute left in Game Six and 98-96 under ten seconds. If the Suns hang on there and go to a Game Seven at home (and the Bulls were clearly tired), then who knows what happens.

Last edited by GMATCallahan : 03-10-2007 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:36 PM   #185
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

So we are all basically on the same page now. We seem to all agree that Kevin Johnson was a good defender and that he guarded Jordan fairly well. He in no way shut him down but he did much better than many others. Loki has agreed to this and GMAT has stated this many times in his posts. So in conclusion, KJ was a good defender and very underrated player and deserves to be on the top 10 list of point guards.
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:43 PM   #186
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

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So we are all basically on the same page now. We seem to all agree that Kevin Johnson was a good defender and that he guarded Jordan fairly well. He in no way shut him down but he did much better than many others. Loki has agreed to this and GMAT has stated this many times in his posts. So in conclusion, KJ was a good defender and very underrated player and deserves to be on the top 10 list of point guards.
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:44 PM   #187
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

Also, for whatever it's worth, NBC seemed to believe that the series was in doubt. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaxOhOysTO4
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:46 PM   #188
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

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Originally Posted by GMATCallahan
Also, for whatever it's worth, NBC seemed to believe that the series was in doubt. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaxOhOysTO4

Just watched that today..gave me goosebumps

The guy who posted that also has a lot of other good videos
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:53 PM   #189
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

You can call me all the names you want. But the fact is i have Auspergers which is a very high functing form of autism One if the main thigs about that is i take all things literaly. He said he was 72 so i just pointed it out that he is not even close to that age.
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:55 PM   #190
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)



anyway, the point is that 41 yr old by nba standards is ancient, im sure that's all he meant.
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:57 PM   #191
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

ya i know but he is not playing now. it dose not matter.
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:00 AM   #192
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

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Originally Posted by nashistheman
You can call me all the names you want. But the fact is i have Auspergers which is a very high functing form of autism One if the main thigs about that is i take all things literaly. He said he was 72 so i just pointed it out that he is not even close to that age.

Sorry man..did not know that...me and you would never get along then(I use sarcasm way too much)
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:02 AM   #193
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

it is ok. Thanks thoug. By the way i love stat also.
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:09 PM   #194
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Default Re: Top 10 Point Guards of All-Time (Ranked)

Bump



Just made a small change. I've realized that Stockton is over Payton when it comes to "All-Time". All-Time is more career based and Stockton has had a better career because of his longevity.

Though Prime is another story, Stockton deserves Top 5 PG of All-Time.



That's it, nothing else.
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