Final list of ISHs Top 25 Guards.

[Reggie43]

Missed this...



Taking 13 shots a game limiting your shots to easy ones in the flow doesnt mean you are able to score more "effectively". It means you take 13 shots a game. And a good scorer should shoot well taking 13 shots a game. Ray has shot 48, 48, and 49% the last 3 years. In a time where guards dont shoot when they did when Reggie was shooting 50%(early 90s).

He didnt just get better. He shoots less. Reggie never had to carry his offense that much. He never had to shoot enough to drop his percentages. The year Reggie peaked in shots per minute(not total...he was playing less minutes than in the early 90s) he shot 44%. The Pacers didnt ride Reggie. They went through Smits more than reggie as I remember it he just didnt have numbers because he never played big minutes.

Most good guards shoot upper 40s if they play 35-40 minutes and pick their spots while the team is winning or close without them needing to score.

If a truly great scorer took the 13 shots a game Reggie took in his prime he might shoot 55%. Not taking as many 3s as Reggie took..but that was his game.

Im not blown away by shooting mid to upper 40s when you take so few shots. Not shooting enough to miss more doesnt make you a better shooter.

Basically your saying that Ray's 20.2 on 45% is much more efficient than Reg's 18.2 on 47% on two fewer shots? with Ray's numbers bound to drop as he plays a few more seasons

[Reggie43]

Im from chicago. I watched young Reggie. Live. And on tv many times. This was back when you played within your division like 5 times. I watched Reggie get his 19 points in 44 minutes then lose many many many times. I didnt get the big deal then and I never did. Though starting around 2002 I did want to see him win a ring.

You watched young reggie play yet you claim he couldnt create seperation without screens? That maybe somewhat true in his final years but definitely not in his prime.

[Kblaze8855]

That's pretty much bullshit. He had 2 playoffs from 92-02 where he didn't score more then 23 ppg, and had 3 15+ game playoff runs where he averaged more then 23 ppg.

I say he scored over 25 a game once and you call it bullshit...then tell me about him scoring 23 a game?

What is 23 a game anyway? Just a number chosen because its around what he did?

And as i said...it was usually in brief runs.

It's not like he was having a bunch of short runs and a couple of them were really high scoring. He averaged something around 24 ppg over 100+ playoff games. You can't just wave that off as a statistical anomaly. That's just how good he was.

I dont call it a statistical anomaly. I call it...scoring 24ppg. Which is nothing to me. Like when Penny had that series vs I think the Heat. Plays the whole game...scores like 35...loses the series.

And?

For a future HOF player who does nothing but score nothing reggie did as a scorer stands out.

I don't know how you can say he and Ray aren't comparable as scorers when he did that. Sure, Ray was a better scorer off the dribble, and got inside more, but it doesn't matter at all when he got the same results.

Except he didnt get the same results. He scored more than Reggie ever did. Reggie raising his scoring up for 2 weeks a season to the level Ray was at for his entire career doesnt make them equals.

Reggie spent most of his career doing nothing but scoring on teams that often needed him to score more than he did. hes out there dropping 11 points in elimination games or 9 points in a close loss where he shot 7 times and im to pretend hes some great scorer?

Reggie half the time was the most invisible superstar of all time. But the brief time he shined he left memories that make people forget that eve though he hit the magical shot with the push off of jordan he hit 12 total shots in games 4, 5, and 6 combined vs the Bulls then watched them come back and win game 7 after they had control.

He always did a lot more in memory than he actually did on the floor.

Also, are you going to start the top 25 forwards project?

From earlier:

I'll give GOAT time to return to do the forwards I guess. Mostly becuase I really really really dont feel like counting up 10-15 peoples lists of top 25 forwards to get the list to begin the voting.

Plus as I understood it hes making a top 100 and would therefore have to split small forwards and power forwards up to get 25 of each to go with 25 guards and 25 centers so....not sure what hes doing. Not trying to **** up his process......

Really not sure what hes doing.

[NBAller]

I think Magic has a funny looking jumper. Great contribution, i know.

[Kblaze8855]

You watched young reggie play yet you claim he couldnt create seperation without screens? That maybe somewhat true in his final years but definitely not in his prime.

Relative to the players in question? All time greats? No. Its like if I say Karl Malone couldnt score one on one with the game on the line. It doesnt mean he literally fumbles the ball away in the post once the 4th quarter comes. It means...compared to those I might be comparing him to.

Of all the players who would come up in talks of the best scoring guards of the last 20 years...I think Reggie would be the worst to put on an island one on one with a solid defender and the expected help behind him.

If Reggie scores 20 he probably had 2 layups on the break, 2 3s, a pump fake and stepthrough he might bank off the glass, 6 free throws at least 4 of them on ******l calls he drew by flopping,and at some point he might jab step 4 times and rise up. Throw a quick assisted layup in there with the help stuck to smits and hes got his points.

Hes not just gonna work a guy over and over and over on a regular basis. He wasnt that kind of scorer.

[Reggie43]

Relative to the players in question? All time greats? No. Its like if I say Karl Malone couldnt score one on one with the game on the line. It doesnt mean he literally fumbles the ball away in the post once the 4th quarter comes. It means...compared to those I might be comparing him to.

Of all the players who would come up in talks of the best scoring guards of the last 20 years...I think Reggie would be the worst to put on an island one on one with a solid defender and the expected help behind him.

If Reggie scores 20 he probably had 2 layups on the break, 2 3s, a pump fake and stepthrough he might bank off the glass, 6 free throws at least 4 of them on ******l calls he drew by flopping,and at some point he might jab step 4 times and rise up. Throw a quick assisted layup in there with the help stuck to smits and hes got his points.

Hes not just gonna work a guy over and over and over on a regular basis. He wasnt that kind of scorer.

Its funny how you manage paragraphs out of simple questions.

You never said anything about comparing him to the players in question or all time greats. You just said that he couldnt create separation without screens which was far from the truth.

If it was up to you to describe Reggie's game to someone who never saw him play that person might think he would be similar to players like del curry or some other spotshooter

[Hondo]

Top 25
------------
#25 Joe Dumars
#24 Earl Monroe
#23 Tracy McGrady
#22 Tiny Archibald
#21 Dennis Johnson
#20 Reggie Miller
#19 Ray Allen
#18 Sam Jones
#17 Hal Greer
#16 George Gervin
#15 Allen Iverson
#14 Gary Payton
#13 Clyde Drexler
#12 Steve Nash ------------ Too high
#11 Jason Kidd
#10 John Stockton ----------- Too low
#9 Walt Frazier
#8 Dwyane Wade
#7 Bob Cousy ------------Too high
#6 Isiah Thomas
#5 Oscar Robertson
#4 Jerry West
#3 Kobe Bryant
#2 Magic Johnson
#1 Michael Jordan.

Missing: Jo Jo White (2 time champ, Finals MVP, 7 time all-star, All-NBA 2nd team x 2, huge jump in production in the playoffs, heart and soul of the 70's Celtics)

[Kblaze8855]

Its funny how you manage paragraphs out of simple questions.

Sorry if I felt "I didnt mean it like that" wouldnt explain what I did mean.

You never said anything about comparing him to the players in question or all time greats. You just said that he couldnt create separation without screens which was far from the truth.

Ive said Ben Wallace cant shoot.

Yet ive seen him make 6-7 threes in a row.

So I suppose its not true to say he cant. Its true to say he cant compared to those who can. I dont think we should have to make that clear.

Reggie cant create his own shot compared to...people good at it. Hes not bad at it compared to people who suck.

If it was up to you to describe Reggie's game to someone who never saw him play that person might think he would be similar to players like del curry or some other spotshooter

I think mine would give them a better idea of what he did in reality than a fan of his who would likely have the guy thinking Reggie was some kinda beast who only scored 18-19 a game out of love for his teammates.

The guy made like....5 jumpers a night, 2 uncontested layups, and some FTs. Most of it in unremarkable fashion.

One on one he wasnt even an Isiah Rider type.

[RobertdeMeijer]

Thanks everybody for working on this project. Thank you KBlaze for picking it up! I can't wait for G.O.A.T. to come back!

As for the final list: it's very very good and worth all the time put into it.


(The only thing I would really want to change is Tracy McGrady for Sidney Moncrief.)

[Reggie43]

Sorry if I felt "I didnt mean it like that" wouldnt explain what I did mean.




Ive said Ben Wallace cant shoot.

Yet ive seen him make 6-7 threes in a row.

So I suppose its not true to say he cant. Its true to say he cant compared to those who can. I dont think we should have to make that clear.

Reggie cant create his own shot compared to...people good at it. Hes not bad at it compared to people who suck.



I think mine would give them a better idea of what he did in reality than a fan of his who would likely have the guy thinking Reggie was some kinda beast who only scored 18-19 a game out of love for his teammates.

The guy made like....5 jumpers a night, 2 uncontested layups, and some FTs. Most of it in unremarkable fashion.

One on one he wasnt even an Isiah Rider type.

How about compared to all nba players regardless of who were good at it or not.

Never said anything about him being a great one on one player, just that he could create separation without screens and was very capable of playing one on one.

Never said he was a beast, I give as much credit to the Pacers success in the 90's to players like Rik Smits, Davis Bros. and Mark jackson.

I view him as a good player capable of being great with the game on the line which obviously didnt happen enough or else he would have a ring

[Kblaze8855]

Fair enough. smits in particular I think gets disregarded. Some people were all offended years ago when Yao was still developing when I said im not sure hes gonna be better than Rik Smits. Posting his stats like I was all out of line...

He played 25 ****ing minutes a game!

[Reggie43]

Fair enough. smits in particular I think gets disregarded. Some people were all offended years ago when Yao was still developing when I said im not sure hes gonna be better than Rik Smits. Posting his stats like I was all out of line...

He played 25 ****ing minutes a game!

Foot problems really ruined his career, he was so vital to the pacers and certainly deserved more praise

[Reggie43]

Fair enough. smits in particular I think gets disregarded. Some people were all offended years ago when Yao was still developing when I said im not sure hes gonna be better than Rik Smits. Posting his stats like I was all out of line...

He played 25 ****ing minutes a game!

Thought of the same thing back then Now looking back at their careers it was basically a wash given the same amount of minutes, with yao being 2 rbs and 1 point better

[WillC]

Not too dissimilar to the rankings on my blog (which are a compilation of well-respected publications' rankings): http://basketballjournalist.blogspot...a-history.html

[COLOR="Red"]Red = ISH ranks them lower than average[/COLOR]
Black = ISH ranks them the same as average
[COLOR="Green"]Green = ISH ranks them higher than average[/COLOR]

Basketball Journalist's Top 25 Guards

[COLOR="Red"]#25 Bill Sharman (ISH = NR)
#24 Lenny Wilkens (ISH = NR)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]#23 Reggie Miller (ISH = 20th)
#22 Hal Greer (ISH = 17th)[/COLOR]
#21 Dennis Johnson (ISH = 21st)
[COLOR="Red"]#20 Pete Maravich (ISH = NR)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]#19 Sam Jones (ISH = 18th)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]#18 Earl Monroe (ISH = 24th)
#17 Tiny Archibald (ISH = 22nd)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]#16 Steve Nash (ISH = 12th)
#15 Clyde Drexler (ISH = 13th)[/COLOR]
#14 Gary Payton (ISH = 14th)
[COLOR="Red"]#13 George Gervin (ISH = 16th)
#12 Allen Iverson (ISH = 15th)[/COLOR]
#11 Jason Kidd (ISH = 11th)
[COLOR="Green"]#10 Dwyane Wade (ISH = 8th)[/COLOR]
#9 Walt Frazier (ISH = 9th)
[COLOR="Red"]#8 John Stockton (ISH = 10th)[/COLOR]
#7 Bob Cousy (ISH = 7th)
#6 Isiah Thomas (ISH = 6th)
[COLOR="Green"]#5 Jerry West (ISH = 4th)
#4 Kobe Bryant (ISH = 3rd)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]#3 Oscar Robertson (ISH = 5th)[/COLOR]
#2 Magic Johnson (ISH = 2nd)
#1 Michael Jordan (ISH = 1st)

[NugzHeat3]

I remember a while back I mentioned that Reggie was a better scorer than Bron.

I explained that he could score on you in multiple ways, all set up with his jumper. Most people think he only came off screens or hit shots after a guard kicked it out to him, but that's not true. He was great at getting a player off balance, sizing them up, beating them with jab steps, using screens, pump fakes etc.etc. some of the things that Bron can't do. Doesn't mean he's a better player or more dangerous, just a more balanced scorer who's abilities get overlooked.

You're a ****ing moron. That was the nicest way I could have put that.

Reggie Miller couldn't create his own shot. Those are the words of his ****ing coach.

That flopping ***** is one of the most overrated players imaginable.