Scottie Pippen appreciation thread.

[Duncan21formvp]

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks

Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link






[quote]

[Duncan21formvp]

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nb...ory?id=5453558

CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

"No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."

"And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."

[Kurosawa0]

Some people will never understand.

The reason Pippen was so great is because he understood his limitations and accepted a role that allowed him to focus on his strengths.

Why can't he just be the great player he was?

Why do people need to pretend he was something he wasn't?

HE WAS A SIDEKICK AND THAT'S NOT AN INSULT.

You know who else were sidekicks, Kareem, Magic, Jerry West, Kobe, John Havlicek...etc.

You can be a great player and be a sidekick.

Agree 100%

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception?

It was only his third full season, not his fourth (he missed almost the entirety of 1986). Secondly, Jordan EASILY had the worst team of any top 10 player when looking at each of their first few years in the league (especially relative to average league team strength). So there's your answer.

Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.

This is completely false. First off, the draft order and the way drafts worked were completely different pre-'85. You DIDN'T need to be one of the worst teams to get a high pick, and not jut via trading for a high pick. I'm not well-versed on the specifics, but this is how LA landed Magic for instance.

And are you seriously going to compare the teams other top 10 players had in their first 3-4 seasons to the team Jordan had in his first 3-4 seasons? Please do so so everyone can laugh at you. Hysterical that you're trying to act like most of the rest of the top 10 had similarly crappy teams when this is FAR from the case.

Who did the other top 10 players get to the conference finals or beyond with in their first 3 years? Magic had KAJ and others, KAJ had Oscar, Shaq had Penny and Grant, Bird had Parish/McHale and others; Duncan had DRob, Kobe had Shaq, Hakeem had Sampson. Besides, there were ONLY TWO PLAYOFF ROUNDS ANYWAY prior to the Finals before 1983, so if you won the first round, bang, you were in the conference finals. Big deal. Now look at who these players had next to them, then tell me what Jordan had for his first 2-3 full seasons (1985, '87 and '88)? Yeah...exactly. There's no equivalence there AT ALL.

Furthermore, few if any of these players had the misfortune of playing ALL-TIME level teams in the FIRST ROUND their first few seasons. Another mitigating factor that RATIONAL people take into account.

Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...

No you dolt, it's not strange AT ALL that a 35 year old player would want to stay with what worked (Pippen and Jackson, which were his conditions for returning) rather than learn a new system under a new coach with a new partner at that stage of his career at age 36. To anyone with a functioning brain, that isn't strange AT ALL.

What's even more hysterical is imbeciles like you who think that Jordan plus Ewing/DRob/Barkley/Hakeem/Drexler wouldn't have run the league from '88 onward ('89 at the latest - 2 full years before they won their first title in reality).

[1987_Lakers]

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nb...ory?id=5453558

Come on now, we all know Charles Oakley made Pippen a man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0f1EsUVCIU

[Maestro33]

Ahhh bout time. Pip was capable of taking over games across the board. He may not nail 4 or 5 straight shots but what he would do is shut down the opponents best player, force a turnover, feed a teammate for a three, steal and run out a dunk and hit a dagger three. I'll take that backbreaking 3 minute stretch over 4 straight hoops any day.

Pip had a habit of putting someone else in position for the glory play, obviously normally Mike. Thats a skill in itself and a mindset/skillset a coach has yet to replicate with another player since.

Pips defense was borderline psychotic. He could literally destroy an offense on his own.

Someone asked what his weakness was it would have to be taking the final shot and free throws weren't great either.

Regardless...

We have the next Mike. Its Kobe. I know it. You know it. LeBron knows it. Theres is no player that is to Pip what Kobe is to Mike.

[G.O.A.T]

We have the next Mike. Its Kobe. I know it. You know it. LeBron knows it. Theres is no player that is to Pip what Kobe is to Mike.

What about LBJ

He's a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Pippen and he became an elite defender at a younger age?

Kobe has never come close to MJ;s MVP's or scoring titles. He's a poor mans Jordan in that sense.

I'd say Kobe is more comparable to Pippen, have been the sidekick and top perimeter defender for a three-peat Champion, than Michael who won five MVP's to Kobe's one and Six titles as the #1 option to Kobe's two.

[magnax1]

What about LBJ

He's a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Pippen and he became an elite defender at a younger age?

Kobe has never come close to MJ;s MVP's or scoring titles. He's a poor mans Jordan in that sense.

I'd say Kobe is more comparable to Pippen, have been the sidekick and top perimeter defender for a three-peat Champion, than Michael who won five MVP's to Kobe's one and Six titles as the #1 option to Kobe's two.

I don't think Lebron is that terribly similar. He impacts the game in somewhat similar ways, but other then this year so far he's been anywhere from a far below average to above average defender, compared to Pippen's all NBA defense almost every year of his career. Also, his game is mostly built around athetlicism, where Pippen might not have been a super skilled scorer, he was extremely fundamentally sound, and much more cerebral. I also don't think Lebron is a better passer really.

[Micku]

Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

Teammates are suppose to cheer on each other. Especially their significant players. Pippen was probably the best SF in the 90s. You better be his number one fan if he is on your team. Likewise with Pippen to Jordan unless you have the Shaq/Kobe relationship. But even then, Shaq commented on Kobe great play and skills.

at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.

Kobe, Mchale, Kareem, Magic, Oscar, West, Shaq, Wade, Stockton, Erving, Moses Malone, and Wilt. Some of the greats had better "sidekicks" than Michael Jordan.

Kareem-Magic/Oscar
Shaq-Kobe
Bird-Mchale
Wilt-West
Moses Malone-Dr. J
K.Malone-Stockton
Wade-Shaq
KG-PP-Allen

And you pick on Jordan...Might as well pick on Kareem and Shaq too. And almost all of them were legit MVP candidates.

Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.

Is Duncan better than Shaq and Wilt because he won earlier and expanded his team better? Is Hakeem better than Jordan too? He had a fast start and had a mediocre several years before the dream became a reality.

There are a lot more details in why Bird, Magic and Russel in why they won than just they are better team players than Jordan. Right place, right time, right system. I won't argue with you in saying that Magic and Bird had better impact on their teams or even the big men, but it's not like Jordan didn't have impact either.

There are a lot more reasons why Jordan won in 88 than the rest of the year. That year they had a better bench (Pippen, Grant), better coaching staff (Phil Jackson and crew), Jordan hit his prime, and just better cast.

Edit:

One more thing, why in the hell would you criticize Jordan for having a great player on a great team when that's what you are suppose to do in basketball? You might as well criticize all of the great teams in the 80s, because they were stacked. Some of them actually had better overall players than the Bulls teams.

I can do that to a lot teams.

"ZOMG, he wouldn't win his other two titles without Kevin Mchale and Parish!"

"ZOMG, Kareem wouldn't win without Oscar or Magic!"

"Shaq can't win at all without Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash, or LBJ!"

"Magic can't win without Kareem or Worthy!"

"Kobe can't win without Shaq or Gasol!"

[kizut1659]

Some people will never understand.

The reason Pippen was so great is because he understood his limitations and accepted a role that allowed him to focus on his strengths.

Why can't he just be the great player he was?

Why do people need to pretend he was something he wasn't?

HE WAS A SIDEKICK AND THAT'S NOT AN INSULT.

You know who else were sidekicks, Kareem, Magic, Jerry West, Kobe, John Havlicek...etc.

You can be a great player and be a sidekick.

You can't compare Pippen to anyone of the above. Kareem was definetely not a sidekick in 1970 and 1980 (as you yourself wrote.) Same for magic in 1987 and 1988. Jerry West was the best player on the Lakers from about 1965 on and him and Wilt were 1A/1B when they won. Kobe was 1B in 2001 and 2002 and won 2 championships as the man. John Havlicek was probably Celtics' most important player in 1968, 1969, and 1974 - definetely not a "sidekick."

By contrast, Pippen had only one good season as someone who was not a sidekick - 1993-1994. I actually think Pippen was a great sidekick and I didn't really mean it in a deragotory way. I think Pippen IS a top 50 GOAT - i just don't think he is top 25.

[G.O.A.T]

I don't think Lebron is that terribly similar. He impacts the game in somewhat similar ways, but other then this year so far he's been anywhere from a far below average to above average defender, compared to Pippen's all NBA defense almost every year of his career.

Well, #1 Pippen was only all-NBA defense in about 60% of his career. I'm not sure I can give any creedence to an opinion based on an eight game sample size either. James was all-NBA first team last year for the second time. Pippen was a year older before he got his first all-NBA 1st team defensive selection.

Also, his game is mostly built around athetlicism, where Pippen might not have been a super skilled scorer, he was extremely fundamentally sound, and much more cerebral. I also don't think Lebron is a better passer really.

Pippen's game was primarily about athleticism. That's what allowed him to become a great defender much more than fundamentals. But that's an opinion so I'll leave it at that.

I think LeBron is a much better passer and so do the stats. Pippen's career high is LeBron's career average. Also there turnovers per minute are almost identical.

I don't think they are the same type of player, but to say there hasn't been another Scottie Pippen is like saying there hasn't been another Shawn Kemp, it's true, but there have been better.

You can't compare Pippen to anyone of the above. Kareem was definetely not a sidekick in 1970 and 1980 (as you yourself wrote.) Same for magic in 1987 and 1988. Jerry West was the best player on the Lakers from about 1965 on and him and Wilt were 1A/1B when they won. Kobe was 1B in 2001 and 2002 and won 2 championships as the man. John Havlicek was probably Celtics' most important player in 1968, 1969, and 1974 - definetely not a "sidekick."

By contrast, Pippen had only one good season as someone who was not a sidekick - 1993-1994. I actually think Pippen was a great sidekick and I didn't really mean it in a deragotory way. I think Pippen IS a top 50 GOAT - i just don't think he is top 25.

I have him right on the edge of the top 25. I wasn't comparing those players careers, only the portions of them spent as sidekicks.

[kizut1659]

What about LBJ

He's a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Pippen and he became an elite defender at a younger age?

Kobe has never come close to MJ;s MVP's or scoring titles. He's a poor mans Jordan in that sense.

I'd say Kobe is more comparable to Pippen, have been the sidekick and top perimeter defender for a three-peat Champion, than Michael who won five MVP's to Kobe's one and Six titles as the #1 option to Kobe's two.

You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc.

Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.) It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.

Again, I am not comparing Kobe to Jordan - he is just not as good and never will be now that he is past his prime already (even though i think the 5 vs. 1 mvp overstates the margin). But in terms of greatness, he is certainly closer to Jordan than Pippen.

[magnax1]

Well, #1 Pippen was only all-NBA defense in about 60% of his career. I'm not sure I can give any creedence to an opinion based on an eight game sample size either. James was all-NBA first team last year for the second time. Pippen was a year older before he got his first all-NBA 1st team defensive selection.

I think the majority of people agree that Lebron's last two defensive selections were unwarranted. I wasn't really trying to use Lebron's play on the heat as an argument, I was just saying he's played great on defense so far.

Pippen's game was primarily about athleticism. That's what allowed him to become a great defender much more than fundamentals. But that's an opinion so I'll leave it at that.

I think LeBron is a much better passer and so do the stats. Pippen's career high is LeBron's career average. Also there turnovers per minute are almost identical.

I don't think they are the same type of player, but to say there hasn't been another Scottie Pippen is like saying there hasn't been another Shawn Kemp, it's true, but there have been better.

Stats don't say much about passing, especially from away from the point guard position. I agree with your last point though. Pippen was unique, but wasn't as special as many make him out to be from a level of play perspective.

[G.O.A.T]

You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc.

Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.) It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.

Again, I am not comparing Kobe to Jordan - he is just not as good and never will be now that he is past his prime already (even though i think the 5 vs. 1 mvp overstates the margin). But in terms of greatness, he is certainly closer to Jordan than Pippen.

Look at the context of my post in relation to what I was responding to. I don't think we disagree much if at all here.

Except the part where you say Kobe was more valuable/important than Shaq at any time between 2000-2002. That's just silly. He may have posted better numbers for whatever reasons (doubt he did though) but that was Shaq's team and all the role players fit Shaq's game better than Kobe's. He was easily the most important player as Phil Jackson makes very clear in the books about those years.

I think the majority of people agree that Lebron's last two defensive selections were unwarranted. I wasn't really trying to use Lebron's play on the heat as an argument, I was just saying he's played great on defense so far.

Stats don't say much about passing, especially from away from the point guard position. I agree with your last point though. Pippen was unique, but wasn't as special as many make him out to be from a level of play perspective.

We don't need to argue here, but I disagree with your assertion of LeBron not deserving his all-defensive selections. He finished second in the DPOTY in 2009, that's pretty major and he always stands out as a threat to block any shot or steal any pass he;s close to.

As for stats and passing, while I agree in principal. When two players who play the same position and one averages more points, more assists and the same number of turnovers, I'm going to feel safe in saying he is better with the ball and a better passer in most cases.

[hitmanyr2k]

Jordan won 50 games in 1988 when Pippen was a foul-prone benchwarming 20 mpg scrub. Get real. It's not MJ's fault that he played 85% of his career with Pippen. Jordan only had his ROOKIE year and then 1987 to "prove" himself before Pippen was on the team. In '85 he was a rookie yet still led the Bulls to a substantial improvement and had one of the best rookie seasons in history. In '87 he had possibly the worst supporting cast in history (especially relative to the league) yet still won 40 games -- and he had to average 40+ ppg/53% FG in the Chicago wins to do it. That team was garbage outside of MJ.

So when was Jordan supposed to have a winning record exactly? As I've already noted, he won 50 games with a rookie Pippen, which, to any sane person (note: this excludes you), proves that he could have at least had a winning record with a decent team around him. Even in '88 his team was no great shakes, yet he won 50 games. But yeah, I'm sure it was 7 pt/4 reb foul-prone Pippen who was the reason for those wins!



It doesn't make any sane person wonder about those things, I'll tell you that much.

Yippee. Jordan won 50 games and put up insane numbers. These days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Ask Lebron He put up 60+ win seasons and had pretty numbers and he's now looked at as a joke. Of course if he had a caliber player of Pippen by his side it would probably be a different story. The Jordan's, the Kobe's, the Lebron's are all alike. People tout them as this and that but at the end of the day they weren't winning jack sh** without their "sidekicks".

And it's funny how "rookie 7 point/4 reb foul prone" Pippen is put in the starting lineup in a do-or-die Game 5 and responds with a damn fine all-around game to get MJ his first ever playoff series win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M