3 point shooting as a measure of shooting skill

[90sgoat]

I am following a debate on another forum (you know which) in where a lot of people argue that being a good/great/goat shooters is all about how you hit from 3.

Let me argue against that. The answer should be quite obvious for those who have actually played the game. I say that as a guy who played 3 and D (with drives) before such a thing was popular, because it was the only way to hang with players who were better than I was.

The 3 point shot along with the FT shot is the easiest to practice and quickly become good at. Why is that? Because the FT line always has the same distance, the exact same position of the feet, the exact same motion.

With the 3 ball, the distance is also always the same, the placement of the feet, the look at the basket, almost always the same (not counting crazy Curry).

Basketball is all about eye hand coordination and balance. When you shoot a 3, you have a shot you have practiced in exact same distance, in exact same foot placement again and again.

On the other hand, the mid range shot is a much more varied shot. The distance to the basket and the angle at the basket varies with every shot. You do not have the privilidge of that 'motor memory' of the 3 point shot. The mid range jumpshot requires you to make a split second approximation of distance and angle and usually is contested more.

This means the mid range shot requires a greater improvisation and therefore requires a greater shooting skill, a greater feel for the ball.

Look at Ibaka, the man can't hit an open mid range to save his life, but can knock down 3s sort of consistently.

This is the truth most ballers know, that the 3 ball is easier to master than the 2 ball. Today most defenses sag off almost anyone that is open for a 2. I remember watching early 00s ball and that is when the lack of mid range became apparant. It was not because of rule changes or 3 is more than 2 nonsense, the other way around, players could no longer hit 2s at acceptable rate.

[bond10]

yes

[PP34Deuce]

Bruce Bowen couldn't hit a 20 foot jumpshot to save his life.

He was damn near automatic from that corner 3 though.

there's some truth to it. Klay Thompson has a great Midrange game. Dangerous and it makes him a huge nightmare to guard long stretches.

[Showtime80']

The post up started dying in the mid 90's, 8+ years any rule changes came around!

Hell Tim Duncan was the last true old school back to the basket big and he came around in 1997!!! The bigs like Webber, Wallace, Garnett and Nowitzki were already starting to face up and move away from the basket.

So the bigs started to move away from the post to shoot long jumpers and then the new generation of small to mid sized guards like Kobe, Carter, T-Mac, Francis, Marbury, Allen, Baron Davis etc... wanted to dunk and bomb away from deep!

There goes your post, mid range and the fast break game as well resulting in the HORRIBLE late 90's to mid 2000's NBA!!!

Make no mistake about it, the NBA WAS FORCED TO MAKE RULE CHANGES!!! Most of that 90's generation didn't have the skill, fundamental knowledge or high IQ level to play under the old rules and make the game WATCHABLE aside from the Lakers, Kings, Mavs and Nets for a brief period. That's 4 out of 30 teams!!!!

[90sgoat]

The post up started dying in the mid 90's, 8+ years any rule changes came around!

Hell Tim Duncan was the last true old school back to the basket big and he came around in 1997!!! The bigs like Webber, Wallace, Garnett and Nowitzki were already starting to face up and move away from the basket.

So the bigs started to move away from the post to shoot long jumpers and then the new generation of small to mid sized guards like Kobe, Carter, T-Mac, Francis, Marbury, Allen, Baron Davis etc... wanted to dunk and bomb away from deep!

There goes your post, mid range and the fast break game as well resulting in the HORRIBLE late 90's to mid 2000's NBA!!!

Make no mistake about it, the NBA WAS FORCED TO MAKE RULE CHANGES!!! Most of that 90's generation didn't have the skill, fundamental knowledge or high IQ level to play under the old rules and make the game WATCHABLE aside from the Lakers, Kings, Mavs and Nets for a brief period. That's 4 out of 30 teams!!!!

Well, the back to basket postup was one thing, but not the only arsenal of the power forward of the 80/90s. If you watch 'old' games from then, you can see EVERY player except center being able to hit the midrange, it was automatic! EVERY power forward hit that mid range like David West EVERY game.

Actually the back to basket is extremely difficult in real life, probably the most difficult to master of all basketball skills. Just feels very unnatural when you try it. Look at Lebron you can see he feels that awkwardness today too.

[SexSymbol]

The 3 point shot along with the FT shot is the easiest to practice and quickly become good at. Why is that? Because the FT line always has the same distance, the exact same position of the feet, the exact same motion.

Absolutely disagree on that one.
There's so much things to learn both physically and mentally on 3 pointers it's staggering how underrated shooters can be sometimes.
You have to either learn to let adrenalin of a coming defender fuel your shot or try to make the shot from physical memory, you have to learn the balance, to keep your head straight no matter what.
It's incredibly hard to coach a 40+ percent shooter that's not just a spot up shooter.
Same with FTs, because there's pressure and it's hard to beat that mentally for some players.

The easiest thing to learn and master is the layup

[Poetry]

There's only a small statistical sample available for Reggie's career, but the numbers suggest old man Reggie was overall a better shooter than Steph and Klay. Obviously Reggie was a better shooter when he was younger.

Reggie (2000-2005)
0-3 feet: .748
3-10 feet: .453
10-16 feet: .451
16<3: .439
3P: (.373 for 5 year sample) (career .395)

Klay (2011-2016)
0-3 feet: .666
3-10 feet: .321
10-16 feet: .397
16<3: .429
3P: .420

Steph (2009-2016)
0-3 feet: .644
3-10 feet: .404
10-16 feet: .448
16<3: .460
3P: .444

[iamgine]

I am following a debate on another forum (you know which) in where a lot of people argue that being a good/great/goat shooters is all about how you hit from 3.

Let me argue against that. The answer should be quite obvious for those who have actually played the game. I say that as a guy who played 3 and D (with drives) before such a thing was popular, because it was the only way to hang with players who were better than I was.

The 3 point shot along with the FT shot is the easiest to practice and quickly become good at. Why is that? Because the FT line always has the same distance, the exact same position of the feet, the exact same motion.

With the 3 ball, the distance is also always the same, the placement of the feet, the look at the basket, almost always the same (not counting crazy Curry).

Basketball is all about eye hand coordination and balance. When you shoot a 3, you have a shot you have practiced in exact same distance, in exact same foot placement again and again.

On the other hand, the mid range shot is a much more varied shot. The distance to the basket and the angle at the basket varies with every shot. You do not have the privilidge of that 'motor memory' of the 3 point shot. The mid range jumpshot requires you to make a split second approximation of distance and angle and usually is contested more.

This means the mid range shot requires a greater improvisation and therefore requires a greater shooting skill, a greater feel for the ball.

Look at Ibaka, the man can't hit an open mid range to save his life, but can knock down 3s sort of consistently.

This is the truth most ballers know, that the 3 ball is easier to master than the 2 ball. Today most defenses sag off almost anyone that is open for a 2. I remember watching early 00s ball and that is when the lack of mid range became apparant. It was not because of rule changes or 3 is more than 2 nonsense, the other way around, players could no longer hit 2s at acceptable rate.

I'm not sure mid range shooting is harder. What makes it hard is the dribbling beforehand since if you're shooting mid-range it's likely you have a defender on you and you'd have to create space/have some moves. The varied distance, I don't think makes it harder than the 3 point shot at all. At least I myself don't find the varied distance to be a problem.

Don't players still hit mid range at a higher percentage than 3s?

[90sgoat]

I'm not sure mid range shooting is harder. What makes it hard is the dribbling beforehand since if you're shooting mid-range it's likely you have a defender on you and you'd have to create space/have some moves. The varied distance, I don't think makes it harder than the 3 point shot at all. At least I myself don't find the varied distance to be a problem.

Don't players still hit mid range at a higher percentage than 3s?

Nope, see Poetry's great post above:

Reggie (2000-2005)
0-3 feet: .748
3-10 feet: .453
10-16 feet: .451
16<3: .439
3P: (.373 for 5 year sample) (career .395)

Klay (2011-2016)
0-3 feet: .666
3-10 feet: .321
10-16 feet: .397
16<3: .429
3P: .420

Steph (2009-2016)
0-3 feet: .644
3-10 feet: .404
10-16 feet: .448
16<3: .460
3P: .444

[3ball]

I'm not sure mid range shooting is harder. What makes it hard is the dribbling beforehand since if you're shooting mid-range it's likely you have a defender on you and you'd have to create space/have some moves. The varied distance, I don't think makes it harder than the 3 point shot at all. At least I myself don't find the varied distance to be a problem.

Don't players still hit mid range at a higher percentage than 3s?

2-point jumpshots are far more CONTESTED - defenders are [COLOR="darkred"]much closer to the shooter[/COLOR] on average - this is statistical fact.

NBA.com's stats show that over 80% of the league's 3-pointers are taken with 4+ feet of room, compared to only 30% of 2-pointers.

In Steph Curry's case, 70% of his threes are taken with 4+ feet of room - specifically, he attempted 11.3 threes per game this season, of which 5.2 of them were "open" (4-6 feet of room), and 2.7 were "very open" (6+ feet), per NBA.com's stats:

[COLOR="White"]........................................[/COLOR]0-2 ft (very tight)[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 2-4 ft (tight)[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 4-6 ft (open)[COLOR="White"].... [/COLOR]6+ ft (very open)

[COLOR="DarkRed"]STEPH CURRY'S.
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME[/COLOR] [COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR]0.4[COLOR="White"]....................[/COLOR] 2.9[COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR]5.1[COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR]2.7 [COLOR="DarkGreen"]<-- nba.com[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL 3-PT ATTEMPTS[/COLOR] [COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR]0.4%[COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR] 26.1%[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR]45.9%[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR]24.3%

[ClipperRevival]

Agree OP.

Here are just some ways to shoot a mid-range shot:

Pull up in trans
One dribble pull up
Two dribble pull up
Catch and shoot off a pick
Set shot
Fade away

The mid-range game REQUIRES that you master the footwork game. And footwork is such a huge and important part of bball.

I also watch the game today and at how shocked some players look when they get the ball 15-17 feet from the basket and have no idea what to do. Here's a freaken idea, shot that thing. A wide open, mid-range jumper in rhythm is a high pct shot. At least it should be. Guys today just seem completely lost in the mid-range situation.

[3ball]

Well, the back to basket postup was one thing, but not the only arsenal of the power forward of the 80/90s. If you watch 'old' games from then, you can see EVERY player except center being able to hit the midrange,[COLOR="Red"] it was automatic! EVERY power forward hit that mid range like David West EVERY game.[/COLOR]

Actually the back to basket is extremely difficult in real life, probably the most difficult to master of all basketball skills. Just feels very unnatural when you try it. Look at Lebron you can see he feels that awkwardness today too.

Midrange % from NBA.com (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

[COLOR="DarkRed"]JORDAN 1997[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 48.9%, 1202 fga
[COLOR="DarkRed"]JORDAN 1998[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 43.2%, 1101 fga

[COLOR="Navy"]CURRY[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [COLOR="Navy"]2015[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 41.1%, 285 fga
[COLOR="Navy"]CURRY[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [COLOR="Navy"]2016[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 42.5%, 200 fga

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]DURANT 2014[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 44.4%, 509 fga

Durant is the closest I've seen to Jordan in terms of VOLUME, and his volume is nowhere near Jordan's.. Jordan's midrange shooting ability is probably drastically underrated all-time, given his efficiency and volume are goat - he led the league in scoring on mostly midrange.

Btw, Jordan had 89 dunks in 1998, which is twice as much as Westbrook gets - so just think how devastating his shot allocation and SELECTION was (goat midrange efficiency coupled with pinpoint drives) - that's why his per possession efficiency (ortg) was so high despite his involvement in so many possessions (usage)
.

[NBAGOAT]

I just don't think the empirical evidence is there. You mentioned ibaka but he takes 34% of his shots fro 16+feet inside the 3 pt line and makes 45% of them, he makes 48% of his shots from 10-16. He's better at knocking down the midrange shot actually, just made more 3's in the playoffs. There's also guys like Al Horford who are basically 50% midrange shooters(ik it's catch and shoot) but they're not nearly as good from 3 raw percentage wise after they try expanding their range.

[ralph_i_el]

I am following a debate on another forum (you know which) in where a lot of people argue that being a good/great/goat shooters is all about how you hit from 3.

Let me argue against that. The answer should be quite obvious for those who have actually played the game. I say that as a guy who played 3 and D (with drives) before such a thing was popular, because it was the only way to hang with players who were better than I was.

The 3 point shot along with the FT shot is the easiest to practice and quickly become good at. Why is that? Because the FT line always has the same distance, the exact same position of the feet, the exact same motion.

With the 3 ball, the distance is also always the same, the placement of the feet, the look at the basket, almost always the same (not counting crazy Curry).

Basketball is all about eye hand coordination and balance. When you shoot a 3, you have a shot you have practiced in exact same distance, in exact same foot placement again and again.

On the other hand, the mid range shot is a much more varied shot. The distance to the basket and the angle at the basket varies with every shot. You do not have the privilidge of that 'motor memory' of the 3 point shot. The mid range jumpshot requires you to make a split second approximation of distance and angle and usually is contested more.

This means the mid range shot requires a greater improvisation and therefore requires a greater shooting skill, a greater feel for the ball.

Look at Ibaka, the man can't hit an open mid range to save his life, but can knock down 3s sort of consistently.

This is the truth most ballers know, that the 3 ball is easier to master than the 2 ball. Today most defenses sag off almost anyone that is open for a 2. I remember watching early 00s ball and that is when the lack of mid range became apparant. It was not because of rule changes or 3 is more than 2 nonsense, the other way around, players could no longer hit 2s at acceptable rate.

Ibaka hasn't shot less than 40% from midrange any season of his career, and it's his most common shot. In 2012-13 he shot ~50% from midrange and it was 43% of his shots.

you are a moron.

[ralph_i_el]

There's only a small statistical sample available for Reggie's career, but the numbers suggest old man Reggie was overall a better shooter than Steph and Klay. Obviously Reggie was a better shooter when he was younger.

Reggie (2000-2005)
0-3 feet: .748
3-10 feet: .453
10-16 feet: .451
16<3: .439
3P: (.373 for 5 year sample) (career .395)

Klay (2011-2016)
0-3 feet: .666
3-10 feet: .321
10-16 feet: .397
16<3: .429
3P: .420

Steph (2009-2016)
0-3 feet: .644
3-10 feet: .404
10-16 feet: .448
16<3: .460
3P: .444

In his prime, Reggie was shooting half as many 3's as Curry.