Who improved their teammates more? Bird or Lebron

[La Frescobaldi]

Team full of stars: Bird

Team full of role players: LeBron

the heat was full of stars

[Dr Hawk]

the heat was full of stars

Those Heatr would have been better with Bird instead of Lebron

[mr4speed]

Magic is the GOAT at that, we know that, but between these two, who do you choose?

I'm picking Bird. As for a team without stars, how about the Indiana State Unknowns, and how Bird almost did the impossible? As for Magic consider this - LA in 1980 with Magic were 26 wins and 11 losses = 70.27%. Without Magic (same year) LA was 28 wins and 17 losses = 62.22% a drop of 8%. Boston in 87-88 was 57 wins and 25 losses =69.51% Boston without Bird in 88-89 was 40 wins and 36 losses (he played 6 games) =52.63% a drop of 16.8%. Which team suffered more?

[feyki]

Bird , of course.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

A few months back I was watching old Celtic games from the '84 and '86 seasons - and saw Bird completely dominating games without shooting the ball. Read defenses to get his team clean looks, rebounded and played defense (underrated)... Looked like he was everywhere on the court doing everything in his power to make his teammates better.

Bird's off-ball play is why he's the answer to OP's question.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Here's a game spotlighting what I talked about above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maS9smxRubI

[Hey Yo]

the heat was full of stars

Parish was putting up similar numbers at Golden St. after he was traded to Boston.....Parish >> Joel Anthony and Birdman Andersen.

McHale played with Boston his rookie year ond on, so we can't say for fact Bird made him better since there's nothing to compare it to...... McHale >> Bosh

Ainge put up his best scoring avg. (17.9) his only full year at Sacramento at age 30....Wade >> Ainge

DJ's numbers regressed once he got to Boston, compared to playing in Sea and PHX. Regardless of that........DJ >>>>> Bibby and Chalmers.

[La Frescobaldi]

Parish was putting up similar numbers at Golden St. after he was traded to Boston.....Parish >> Joel Anthony and Birdman Andersen.

McHale played with Boston his rookie year ond on, so we can't say for fact Bird made him better since there's nothing to compare it to...... McHale >> Bosh

Ainge put up his best scoring avg. (17.9) his only full year at Sacramento at age 30....Wade >> Ainge

DJ's numbers regressed once he got to Boston, compared to playing in Sea and PHX. Regardless of that........DJ >>>>> Bibby and Chalmers.

that's not bad, not bad at all. i don't disagree

[dubeta]

A few months back I was watching old Celtic games from the '84 and '86 seasons - and saw Bird completely dominating games without shooting the ball. Read defenses to get his team clean looks, rebounded and played defense (underrated)... Looked like he was everywhere on the court doing everything in his power to make his teammates better.

Bird's off-ball play is why he's the answer to OP's question.

LOL Bird had ZERO off-ball game

Did you even watch Bird play??

[La Frescobaldi]

LOL Bird had ZERO off-ball game

Did you even watch Bird play??

what are you talking about? Bird had one of the greatest off-ball styles ever seen. Teams feared him no matter where he was but he still would stand wide open as if nobody knew where he was

[LAZERUSS]

Bird made from 29 wins team to 61, and a year later - championship. Bird instead of Lebron on Cavs teams would have won multiple rings already.

He, nor even MJ at his peak, would have won last year's Finals against an all-time great Warriors team, and playing without his two best teammates.

People forget that MJ's '87 Bulls were swept by a 59-23 Celtics team that was on the downside, and in a series in which Jordan shot .417,m and went 9-35 in the clincher. Hell, he had a teammate, Oakley, who hung a 20-15 series, and they were still swept.

So no way in hell does Bird or Jordan take last year's cast of clowns to a win over that 67-15 Warriors team, and with their second best player being JR Smith (who has as much business being in the NBA as I do.) In fact, Lebron single-handedly won two games, and narrowly lost two more, all wth Smith, Deli, and Shumpert (the Three Stooges) shooting .326, .283, and .258 in that series.


And the Lebron-bashers never bring up the FACT that every team he has joined has improved DRAMATICALLY, and every team he has left has crumbled completely.

How about this...in his rookie season, he took a team with it's best player the year before, the clown of a center, Big Z, from a 17 wins, to 35. "Big Z" an all-star? What a joke.

In his third seasom Lebron took that wretched cast to their first ever Finals. Within a couple of years the Cavs were going 66-16 (a team record), and 61-21.

Lebron bolted for Miami. What happened to his Cavs? 19-63.

Meanwhile, Lebron's new team improved from a 47-35 and a first round exit, to a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals.

Lebron would carry those Heat teams to four straight Finals, dominating in two of them, and had virtually zero help in his last Finals there. BTW, before someone brings up Wade...he was already on the downslide, and by their 4th season was nearly worthless. Oh, and in the games that Wade missed...Miami went 47-18.

Ok, Lebron left the Heat. And without him, Wade and the "10 time All-Star" Bosh (who couldn't hold Horace Grant's jock) plummeted to a 37-45 record and didn't even make the playoffs.

Lebron then took a Cavs team that had gone 33-49 the year before, to a 53-29 record, and yet again, another Finals. Oh, and without Lebron, the Cavs went 3-10...with him, 50-19!

And it's not like Bird didn't have his share of post-season flop jobs, either. Hell, he WON his first ring with a 15 ppg Finals on a .419 FG%. After that, he put up two horrific post-season runs in '82 and '83. In '87, he played one good game in the Finals, and his team was blown out in it. And in '88, he single-handedly took his Celtics down in flames against the Bad Boys with a .351 FG%.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm picking Bird. As for a team without stars, how about the Indiana State Unknowns, and how Bird almost did the impossible? As for Magic consider this - LA in 1980 with Magic were 26 wins and 11 losses = 70.27%. Without Magic (same year) LA was 28 wins and 17 losses = 62.22% a drop of 8%. Boston in 87-88 was 57 wins and 25 losses =69.51% Boston without Bird in 88-89 was 40 wins and 36 losses (he played 6 games) =52.63% a drop of 16.8%. Which team suffered more?

Magic had a season of 6-0 without KAJ in the decade of the 80's, too. In fact, his teams went 24-8 in the games that Kareem missed...which is higher than his entire career W-L% of .742 (the highest ever BTW.) How about Kareem in the games that Magic missed? 61-40 or a .604 W-L%.

Oh, and in his rookie season, and with KAJ watching the game from his couch, Magic put up a historic 42-15-7 clincher in the Finals. In fact, that win was the only blowout win of the series.

And in their '87 run, Kareem was no more than a "third wheel.' And in their '88 title run, Magic carried his team to a title DESPITE Kareem's AWFUL play (and with the worst game seven ever by a GOAT candidate.)

In '89, LA came into the Finals, 11-0. Magic got hurt, and without, they were swept.

Kareem retired, and LA IMPROVED from a 57-25 team to a 63-19 team (62-17 with Magic BTW.)

And in his last season, Magic single-handedly took his broken down remnants from the '80's to a shocking win over a heavily-favored Blazers team, and to his ninth Finals in 12 seasons.

He retired, and virtually everyone of his main teammates from the season before watched their FG%'s PLUNGE...as did their record...43-39 (and then followed that up with a 39-43 record.)

CLEARLY it was MAGIC who CARRIED those Laker teams to NINE Finals and FIVE rings.

[La Frescobaldi]

Magic had a season of 6-0 without KAJ in the decade of the 80's, too. In fact, his teams went 24-8 in the games that Kareem missed...which is higher than his entire career W-L% of .742 (the highest ever BTW.) How about Kareem in the games that Magic missed? 61-40 or a .604 W-L%.

Oh, and in his rookie season, and with KAJ watching the game from his couch, Magic put up a historic 42-15-7 clincher in the Finals. In fact, that win was the only blowout win of the series.

And in their '87 run, Kareem was no more than a "third wheel.' And in their '88 title run, Magic carried his team to a title DESPITE Kareem's AWFUL play (and with the worst game seven ever by a GOAT candidate.)

In '89, LA came into the Finals, 11-0. Magic got hurt, and without, they were swept.

Kareem retired, and LA IMPROVED from a 57-25 team to a 63-19 team (62-17 with Magic BTW.)

And in his last season, Magic single-handedly took his broken down remnants from the '80's to a shocking win over a heavily-favored Blazers team, and to his ninth Finals in 12 seasons.

He retired, and virtually everyone of his main teammates from the season before watched their FG%'s PLUNGE...as did their record...43-39 (and then followed that up with a 39-43 record.)

CLEARLY it was MAGIC who CARRIED those Laker teams to NINE Finals and FIVE rings.

Overstatement. Indeed, hyperbole. He didn't CARRY Showtime Lakers.

Now, the 90s-no-longer-Showtime-except-in-name? Yeah different story.

[LAZERUSS]

Overstatement. Indeed, hyperbole. He didn't CARRY Showtime Lakers.

Now, the 90s-no-longer-Showtime-except-in-name? Yeah different story.

Completely TRUE statement.

They were a .500 team before he joined them, and a .500 team after he retired.

In between, he led them to NINE Finals, and FIVE rings, and came within an eyelash or key injuries (including to himself) of winning at least a couple more.) And their WORST record was 54-28 (and 26-11 with Magic that year.) Hell, they IMPROVED after Kareem retired.

Easily the best player of the 80's. And a case for GOAT.

[La Frescobaldi]

Completely TRUE statement.

They were a .500 team before he joined them, and a .500 team after he retired.

In between, he led them to NINE Finals, and FIVE rings, and came within an eyelash or key injuries (including to himself) of winning at least a couple more.)

Easily the best player of the 80's.

You can't just lump Worthy, Jabbar, Cooper, even McAdoo off the bench and Coach Riley into one pile and call them role players. Those guys were long gone by 90s except faded Big Game.

We've been here before my friend. I hate the Boston Celtics possibly more than anybody in the long, illustrious history of Celtics haters.

But Bird was better than Johnson.