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Thread: #apples2oranges

  1. #166
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41
    So we should never compare any players ever then. Because you could literally go back to middle school with this shit.

    It's just a never ending line of bs excuses that could be given.
    EXACTLY. There maybe some homeless drug addict out there who's dad is in jail and mom was a crackhead, and if he grew up in Jordan's situation would've been twice as great as Jordan was instead of a homeless drug addict. But I guess we can't say Jordan was the GOAT cause there maybe others in the entire population of the Earth's history that would've been better in the same situation.

  2. #167
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer DMAVS41's Avatar
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by tpols
    That would just be ridiculous though.. going back to the start of their original nba careers, in a comparison about how their hypothetical nba careers would pan out.. isnt that far fetched. We arent going butterfly effect deep.

    Their career starts greatly affected how their roles, responsibilities, mentalities, leadership, etc all developed.

    I didnt even mention one guy coming out of HS and one coming out of college. Lets see HS MJ come to play with the MDE and see how much responsibility he is handed.. and then compare that to his career track as an out of college player given full reigns on a shitty team.

    Their situations were as apples and oranges as it could get.
    How they came into the league was different. That is obvious and why you didn't mention it....it's ****ing obvious.

    Again. Should we then never compare players? Because if you think comparing Kobe and MJ is apples to oranges.

    WTF is comparing a guy like Dirk to Duncan? One guy growing up in Germany and coming to a foreign land and straight to a NBA team vs the 4 year college vet in Duncan...joining Robinson and the Pop on the Spurs.

    So those two players can't be compared? We can't rank them all time? Come off it.

    No 2 players are ever going to have the exact same career path.

  3. #168
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by tpols
    That would just be ridiculous though.. going back to the start of their original nba careers, in a comparison about how their hypothetical nba careers would pan out.. isnt that far fetched. We arent going butterfly effect deep.

    Their career starts greatly affected how their roles, responsibilities, mentalities, leadership, etc all developed.

    I didnt even mention one guy coming out of HS and one coming out of college. Lets see HS MJ come to play with the MDE and see how much responsibility he is handed.. and then compare that to his career track as an out of college player given full reigns on a shitty team.

    Their situations were as apples and oranges as it could get.
    Skipping or going to college was their choice though, and Phil only made comparisons that really has nothing to do with their career paths. In fact, he didn't refer to any of their NBA experiences, but he referred to how developed they were coming into the NBA, which had alot to do with their own choices i.e. college.

    Comparing their defense is not apples and oranges. Comparing their approach isn't apples and oranges. Comparing their personality isn't apples and oranges. You don't have to come up with reasons for them being one way or the other to compare the two.
    Last edited by guy; 05-20-2013 at 12:17 PM.

  4. #169
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41
    How they came into the league was different. That is obvious and why you didn't mention it....it's ****ing obvious.

    Again. Should we then never compare players? Because if you think comparing Kobe and MJ is apples to oranges.

    WTF is comparing a guy like Dirk to Duncan? One guy growing up in Germany and coming to a foreign land and straight to a NBA team vs the 4 year college vet in Duncan...joining Robinson and the Pop on the Spurs.

    So those two players can't be compared? We can't rank them all time? Come off it.

    No 2 players are ever going to have the exact same career path.
    Dude..

    Its not about the player to player skill to skill athelticism to athleticism comparison. Those are the things that would NOT have changed as much because of their differing situations entering the league. Those are things that are CONSTANTS.

    MJ wasnt losing his vert or his skill because he went to the lakers.

    The things that would CHANGE based on their situations are their roles, responsibilities, and leadership development. And those are extremely important in setting a career path off.

  5. #170
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    While we're on this stupid topic, I have wondered before what would have happened had LeBron grown up like Jordan. Jordan drew his competitive spirit from his siblings IIRC, LeBron never had that. LeBron was always special from a young age and was thrown into the national media as a 16 year old, Jordan had to prove himself from a young age. LeBron was crowned the king from the beginning, Jordan had to earn it.

    Hmmm, just wondering.

  6. #171
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer DMAVS41's Avatar
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by tpols
    Dude..

    Its not about the player to player skill to skill athelticism to athleticism comparison. Those are the things that would NOT have changed as much because of their differing situations entering the league. Those are things that are CONSTANTS.

    MJ wasnt losing his vert or his skill because he went to the lakers.

    The things that would CHANGE based on their situations are their roles, responsibilities, and leadership development. And those are extremely important in setting a career path off.
    Again. You pretend like we didn't get to see Kobe in every role. If he had played his entire career in only 1 role...then your point would have merit.

    We got to see Kobe play the rookie, the young gun with too much confidence for how good he was, the great 2nd fiddle, the star player on crap teams, the star player on good teams, the star player on good to great teams.

    We saw everything.

    All of what you say is true, but you could go all the way back to middle school or high school and lament about responsibilities and leadership and situations...etc. It's just a non point.

    You judge players on what they did in the circumstances they were given. End of story. And with Kobe it's very easy to imagine his career not playing with Shaq. 2 or 3 titles....and probably 2 more ppg in the playoffs and regular season with a 1% dip in overall efficiency.

    Does that change anything for anyone? Nope. In fact, it just puts Kobe lower on all time lists I would imagine.

  7. #172
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by K Xerxes
    While we're on this stupid topic, I have wondered before what would have happened had LeBron grown up like Jordan. Jordan drew his competitive spirit from his siblings IIRC, LeBron never had that. LeBron was always special from a young age and was thrown into the national media as a 16 year old, Jordan had to prove himself from a young age. LeBron was crowned the king from the beginning, Jordan had to earn it.

    Hmmm, just wondering.
    You could just as easily turn it around. If Jordan was a superstar at the age of 16, would he have still had that chip on his shoulder?

    It's pretty amazing that LeBron has put in so much work after already being a celebrity with a $100M contract before even playing an NBA game. Look at guys like Melo who simply don't have the same hunger.

  8. #173
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by guy
    He wouldn't have a problem trusting Shaq who clearly wasn't like that and was one of the most dominant players ever. He wouldn't have a problem trusting veterans like Horry, Shaw, Harper.

    But would it be a problem on the court and as big of a problem as it was with Kobe? Doesn't seem like it. And from Phil's comments, it seems like Jordan would've clearly had a better relationship with Shaq and the rest of his teammates.........

    Now this is just wishful thinking and more authority appeals.

    Jordan would've clearly had a better relationship with Shaq
    Everything isn't black or white man. This is just wishful thinking.

    So basically what you're saying is Kobe was socially awkward, could be a disrespectful asshole to his teammates/coaches alienating them in the process, couldn't adjust as well to his teammates personalities, and took longer to mature. You didn't have to write that much to say you agree with Phil.
    Strawman argument.

    How they developed before that doesn't change or downplay who was better then the other.
    Yes it does. As he said, different career paths. Apples to oranges.

    Besides, no one forced him to skip college just like no one forced Jordan to go to college.
    That's irrelevant.

    If you murder someone today, does the fact that you weren't educated enough to know how wrong murder is make you less of a shitty person?
    That is a false dilemma and a weak analogy.
    Last edited by Ne 1; 05-20-2013 at 12:29 PM.

  9. #174
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer tpols's Avatar
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41
    Again. You pretend like we didn't get to see Kobe in every role. If he had played his entire career in only 1 role...then your point would have merit.

    We got to see Kobe play the rookie, the young gun with too much confidence for how good he was, the great 2nd fiddle, the star player on crap teams, the star player on good teams, the star player on good to great teams.

    We saw everything.

    All of what you say is true, but you could go all the way back to middle school or high school and lament about responsibilities and leadership and situations...etc. It's just a non point.

    You judge players on what they did in the circumstances they were given. End of story. And with Kobe it's very easy to imagine his career not playing with Shaq. 2 or 3 titles....and probably 2 more ppg in the playoffs and regular season with a 1% dip in overall efficiency.

    Does that change anything for anyone? Nope. In fact, it just puts Kobe lower on all time lists I would imagine.
    I agree with that..

    I said Kobe would win around that.. depending on what you give him.

    And I said Jordan would win 4ish titles with Shaq before a split occured, and then he would have over half his career to get more chips.

    Youre the one who said 5 minimum and ending at 8-10 championships.. which is just so absurd to think they wouldve stuck around with each other that long when theres so much evidence pointing to it not working out for the long haul.

    Not to mention Jordan would've had less MVPs.. just like Shaq. Because they dont reward a guy that plays with another all time great beside him.

  10. #175
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by K Xerxes
    While we're on this stupid topic, I have wondered before what would have happened had LeBron grown up like Jordan. Jordan drew his competitive spirit from his siblings IIRC, LeBron never had that. LeBron was always special from a young age and was thrown into the national media as a 16 year old, Jordan had to prove himself from a young age. LeBron was crowned the king from the beginning, Jordan had to earn it.

    Hmmm, just wondering.

    - From watching every Jordan VHS/DVD/TV shows etc...etc...

    - Both of MJ's parents worked and MJ's dad ( according to MJ) knew how to fix anything mechanical...cars, engines, farm equipment...etc.

    - His dad would often make MJ work....and if Jordan would ge tired his dad would make fun of telling him to " go in the kitchen then and work with the women"

    - so obviously he had an " work ethic to prove yurself" with his siblings and his father.....he probably felt he had to prove himself constantly...



    - Lebrons menatlity most likely came from his peers.....he was always looked at asbieng great....his peers put that pressure on him to be great.

    - Luckily he had great people who raised him when his Mom could not....

    - who knows wich is better...but both have excelled and become great at what they love to do...


    ( Not comparing or saying lebron is better......but both have made it is all)

  11. #176
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    8-10 Championships? Really?

  12. #177
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    I've avoided posting in this thread but Kobe has a point about perception. If Kobe had come first and had the same career he has now there's no doubt he would be looked at in a different light. If Jordan had played with Shaq from when he entered the league he'd be looked at in a different light too regardless of how Jordan like he played. Either way Kobe shouldn't have responded because there's no way he can look good regardless of what he says. Should have just said he respects Phil and respects MJ. But his apples to oranges analogy is just plain dumb. Comparing Kobe and Jordan is pretty much as apples to apples as you can get.

  13. #178
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer tpols's Avatar
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by longtime lurker
    I've avoided posting in this thread but Kobe has a point about perception. If Kobe had come first and had the same career he has now there's no doubt he would be looked at in a different light. If Jordan had played with Shaq from when he entered the league he'd be looked at in a different light too regardless of how Jordan like he played.
    This point^^^

    Quote Originally Posted by longtime lurker
    But his apples to oranges analogy is just plain dumb. Comparing Kobe and Jordan is pretty much as apples to apples as you can get.
    And this point ^^^ directly contradict each other.

  14. #179
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne 1
    Now this is just wishful thinking and more authority appeals.



    Everything isn't black or white man. This is just wishful thinking.



    Strawman argument.



    Yes it does. As he said, different career paths. Apples to oranges.



    That's irrelevant.



    That is a false dilemma and a weak analogy.
    Its not a weak analogy. Its exactly what you're doing. Because that murderer wasn't brought up in a more favorable situation, his actions aren't as bad according to you. Just like if Jordan came out of HS instead of college, his accomplishments would be better because he wasn't developed in a more favorable situation.

    I guess I'll just say this. We can't say that Michael Jordan was that much better then Darius Miles, because Darius Miles could've possibly been better then Jordan if he went to UNC for 3 years then the NBA instead of skipping college then going straight to the NBA.

  15. #180
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    Default Re: #apples2oranges

    @ the thought that MJ/Shaq would be able to co-exist any better than Kobe/Shaq did.

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