Who do you think did more for the franchise - Kobe or Dirk?

[Rooster]

Obviously I'm not gonna argue Tim > Jordan, or say that Tim did more for his franchise than Jordan did for is, but the wording of your post clearly shows your agenda.

If it's Pop -- who wasn't being called an all time great coach until his 3rd ring (go look at the GM surveys from the early 2000s to see how Pop was rated) -- featuring Tim, surely it's Phil featuring Mike?

Pop before Duncan had a .500 record. When Duncan was at his worst, 09-11, Pop crashed out the Playoffs (1st round loss, 2nd round loss, 1st round loss). Mike before Phil? Could barely win a Playoff game. When Jordan retired for getting his father murdered? Went to a game 7 in the ECSF, then won another 5 rings.

It was Jordan just like it was Duncan. Just like it was Shaq then Kobe.

Before the Admiral got injured, Spurs average 56 wins and Duncan came along. They went to WCF but it was clear they need another great player to finally put them to the top. And that was Duncan.

[T_L_P]

Before the Admiral got injured, Spurs average 56 wins and Duncan came along. They went to WCF but it was clear they need another great player to finally put them to the top. And that was Duncan.

Agreed. And I'm not saying Duncan's the Spurs or anything like that. I'm just saying it's clear that he's the main reason for our franchise's success. He's the freaking franchise player we built all those teams around.

Pop before Duncan was a .500 coach. He almost got fired in 99 because he was so unoriginal. He wasn't being called the best coach in the league in the early 2000s like Duncan was (as a player). The only time the Spurs lost in the first round before 09 with Duncan was when he missed the Playoffs (and we lost to a very mediocre Phoenix team). When Duncan was at his worst, Pop was getting bounced out of the Playoffs left and right.

It's Duncan featuring Pop, Manu, Parker, etc. Not the other way 'round. Unless it's also Phil featuring Jordan, Pippen Kobe, Shaq, Pau, or Doc featuring Garnett, Piece, Rondo, et al.

[navy]

He almost got fired in 99 because he was so unoriginal.

Pretty sure Pop was the one who made himself head coach.

[T_L_P]

Pretty sure Pop was the one who made himself head coach.

He was. And he almost got fired, if not for Avery taking the reigns (being our unquestioned leader and motivator) and Duncan/Robinson stepping up their games even further.

[Milbuck]

He was. And he almost got fired, if not for Avery taking the reigns (being our unquestioned leader and motivator) and Duncan/Robinson stepping up their games even further.

What does Pop almost getting fired have to do with his coaching ability? Scrub coaches get hired all the time, and quality coaches get fired all the time.

[T_L_P]

What does Pop almost getting fired have to do with his coaching ability? Scrub coaches get hired all the time, and quality coaches get fired all the time.

Couldn't co-ordinate off-ball movement for shit, couldn't get the guards to funnel their men into Robinson or Duncan properly, implored one of the most vanilla offensive systems in the league, just because had a couple of stars.

Pop grew into the role. He had the two best stars any coach could ask for to help him do that, who played both ends of the floor.

[La Frescobaldi]

Kobe Bryant without question. LOL at this thread.

are you sure?

The Lakers are iconic and have been since Day 1.

They were winning rings long before anybody on this board was watching hoops. Logo had them in the Finals 9 times all through the 60s. They had the very first superstar, the very first Big 3... they had a decade of Showtime.

There's reasons Jack Nicholson has had front row seats since the '70s and it ain't the late-comer Clippers.
The whole entire Hollywood panoply of stars was seating bleachers when Chamberlain was dishing it to Gail Goodrich and setting rebound records with Happy Hairston that won't ever get touched and more than anything else that's ever happened in basketball, that '72 season made the NBA a national sport. It was a perfect storm of movie stars, amazing talents, and a non-stop terrific competition with NYC.

The Mavs were a literal laughingstock for years. Way back in like '83 and '84 they had a run with Mark Aguirre and young Derek Harper and Blackman.... like they were getting anywhere NEAR Sixers/LAKERS/Celtics level ..... but that was it. They played to empty seats through a lot of the '90s like 19th of 27 teams and worse...... lots of times Reunion Arena looked like a desert.

When Dirk showed up they sailed up to 3rd or 4th in the League in attendence and stay right up there.... every year he's been there.

I'm going with Dirk on this one.

He's not better than Kobe and never was. But he did more for Dallas Hoops than Bryant has done for LA.

[Milbuck]

Couldn't co-ordinate off-ball movement for shit, couldn't get the guards to funnel their men into Robinson or Duncan properly, implored one of the most vanilla offensive systems in the league, just because had a couple of stars.

Pop grew into the role. He had the two best stars any coach could ask for to help him do that, who played both ends of the floor.

He didn't grow into the role, he adapted to what he had. Of course he's gonna run nearly everything through Duncan and Robinson, and then primarily through Duncan during his peak. It's just smart basketball. What would be the point of running the current schemes in the late 90s and early 2000s when 1) it's a different defensive era, and 2) you have a 2-headed monster in the paint? As the roster personnel changed, as Duncan was coming down, as Parker/Manu/etc were developing, and as the rules changed and the league was gravitating towards a different style of play, Pop adapted to it.

[JellyBean]

Really? I got Kobe.

[NZStreetBaller]

Kobe for sure. I give mark cuban more credit for the championship then dirk.

[jstern]

It depends on how you view this. Being in LA, as opposed to Charlotte has done a lot more for Kobe than he would have in a lower market. He got to play with Shaq and Pau, on great teams that let him win championships. He's been to the Finals 7 times and has only won Finals MVP twice, that's how good those teams were. Even while shooting just 41%.

While Dirk has brought Dallas their 1st championship while being clutch AF. Stepping up. So in that sense, Dirk wins.

But in terms of money, Kobe has a very stylish game, similar looking to Michael Jordan's. Very profitable. So he wins there.

[La Frescobaldi]

Kobe for sure. I give mark cuban more credit for the championship then dirk.

if that's the case, the Lakers organization was a shambles and Kobe's career got hammered for it. right?

What you're saying is, organizations are more important than players