The anti-espn top 25 list

[Lebron23]

1. MJ
2-3. Russell/Kareem
4. Wilt
5-6. Bird/Magic
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe
11. Lebron
12. West
13. Moses
14. Oscar
15. Garnett
16. Dr.J
17. Malone
18. Dirk
19. Robinson
20. Barkley

This is a terrible Lists. You don't know $hit about basketball. You don't even play basketball. Truth Hurts.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

24_inch, regarding Garnett's ranking, 15-20 is very difficult for me to rank. Because as far as I'm concerned, Malone, Barkley, Dirk, Garnett are on the same tier of greatness. You can throw those names up in the air, and however they land sequentially, I'd be perfectly fine with. In the same breath, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Lebron, and Kobe are in that category where I may rank them differently next week. It's tough. What I mainly wanted to avoid was crazy shit like Lebron being 9 places ahead of Kobe, or Stockton being 19th, or Durant being one spot below KG. Those were a few of the major WTF outliers with ESPN's list, but there are obviously alot more examples.

Completely understand the 15-20 difficulty. I'm no expert on Garnett but if you ever see fpliii posting, be sure to ask him. Very knowledgeable on Garnett and he knows his stuff without being overbearing, overall great poster, always tries to be objective.

You did a great job, the 25 included are basically all either locks or have a case. Not everyone is going to agree on every pick but it looks much, much better than ESPN's. If ISH wasn't such a shit show it might be interesting to try making our own top 100 list the same way that RealGM did but it'd be more trouble than it's worth here.

[Lebron23]

How can Wilt be the 2nd greatest player of all time? When he had the same accomplishments as LeBron? And LeBron is the superior playoffs, and Finals performer.

Both of them also held many records in the NBA.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Lebron
Kobe
Hakeem
Oscar
West
Moses
Dr.J
Malone
Dirk
Barkley
Garnett
Wade
Baylor
Robinson
Isiah
Mikan
Pippen

For those who spit their coffee at the sight of Mikan, even though he'd likely be a 10th man if he even made the league today, his relevance and historical significance to the league should be acknowledged IMO with a top 25 ranking.

So...better than ESPN's list? Worse? Flame shield is activated and ready.

Good list, I've got a couple of questions.

Do you consider aba when rating dr.j? He's one of the more difficult to place for for that reason.

I've got lebron around 7th him shaq and duncan are interchangeable on my ever changing list. I feel like him and wilt share similar cases due to much being the same aside from wilts career numbers dominance. What the difference between the 2 for you?

[sdot_thadon]

Mj
Kaj
Russell
Bird
Magic. (Tier 1 guys)

Duncan
Kobe
Shaq (tier 2 guys, interchangeable how u like)

Wilt

Hakeem
Lebron (tier 3, interchangeable)




I can't rate wilt any higher due to playoffs and finals drop off in performance and failing to win with stacked casts.. Same goes for bran.

If that hold True, then you just conveniently look the other way at magic and kareem both losing 4 finals with the teams they've had? Bird lost 2 with the cast he had. Shaq and kobe lost with one of the most overwhelming ones too. So I guess they've all gotta drop by your standards....

[Dragonyeuw]

Good list, I've got a couple of questions.

Do you consider aba when rating dr.j? He's one of the more difficult to place for for that reason.

I've got lebron around 7th him shaq and duncan are interchangeable on my ever changing list. I feel like him and wilt share similar cases due to much being the same aside from wilts career numbers dominance. What the difference between the 2 for you?

Yes I do consider that as well. I don't think the NBA portion of his career would have him in the top 20.

As for Shaq/Wilt, I think it's more a case of Wilt being the originator, or Shaq 1.0. Obviously his records are off the charts and many will never come close to being duplicated( granted it's era specific, but I won't discredit on that basis). I think, when it comes to that top 5 category, you're getting into the very minute, and subjective, details. Where do you have Wilt and Shaq in your personal list?

[SouBeachTalents]

I feel like Pettit always gets shafted on these lists. Dude was a 2x MVP, 10x All-NBA and led one of only two teams to ever beat the Russell Celtics in the playoffs. He came up just short of defeating them again, losing to those Celtics twice in Game 7 of the Finals, including a double OT defeat in '57

Hondo should also definitely be on this list, was also 10x All-NBA and arguably the best player on 3 championship teams ('68, '69, '74)

I'd swap those two with Pippen & Mikan. I understand Mikan completely dominated his era, and I wouldn't blame someone for putting him top 25, but he just played in an unprecedentedly different era from anyone else on that list. Not counting his final season in '56, when he was a shell of himself, Mikan never played with a shot clock, and imo never went up against great competiton. Who was the best player he faced, Dolph Schayes? At least Pettit was in the shot clock era going up against the likes of Russell/Baylor/West/Wilt

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Very good list, and nearly identical to mine except that I have KAJ over Wilt.

Its great seeing another poster rate Shaq accordingly. His value and dominance couldn't be more understated with these garbage media rankings.

[SouBeachTalents]

Very good list, and nearly identical to mine except that I have KAJ over Wilt.

Its great seeing another poster rank Shaq accordingly. His value and dominance couldn't be more understated with these garbage media lists.

Like SI having him 15th . I'm in straight up disbelief over that one

[Dragonyeuw]

Completely understand the 15-20 difficulty. I'm no expert on Garnett but if you ever see fpliii posting, be sure to ask him. Very knowledgeable on Garnett and he knows his stuff without being overbearing, overall great poster, always tries to be objective.

You did a great job, the 25 included are basically all either locks or have a case. Not everyone is going to agree on every pick but it looks much, much better than ESPN's. If ISH wasn't such a shit show it might be interesting to try making our own top 100 list the same way that RealGM did but it'd be more trouble than it's worth here.

Yes I think I recall seeing some good stuff from him on Garnett. Hopefully he sees this and weighs in.

I agree that the inclusion of those 25 is more important than the finer details of the rankings, especially in that 10-20 range. Very hard to measure. The thing is, all these guys are truly great and circumstances play so much in how a player's career develops, in addition to alot of intangibles beyond stats and rings etc etc.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How can Wilt be the 2nd greatest player of all time? When he had the same accomplishments as LeBron? And LeBron is the superior playoffs, and Finals performer.

Both of them also held many records in the NBA.

Huh?

Wilt had the same "accomplishments" as LeBron, but actually was the superior regular season, playoff and Finals performer. Not sure how or why you confused the bold.

[coin24]

If that hold True, then you just conveniently look the other way at magic and kareem both losing 4 finals with the teams they've had? Bird lost 2 with the cast he had. Shaq and kobe lost with one of the most overwhelming ones too. So I guess they've all gotta drop by your standards....

They all still won more than they lost. They are winners.
Next tier down is the wilts and lebrons, still great players but not on par with the other guys..
And to the other poster who said Hakeem was more dominant
Shaq was the most dominant player ever, go and rewatch 2000-03, just brutal

[Dragonyeuw]

I feel like Pettit always gets shafted on these lists. Dude was a 2x MVP, 10x All-NBA and led one of only two teams to ever beat the Russell Celtics in the playoffs. He came up just short of defeating them again, losing to those Celtics twice in Game 7 of the Finals, including a double OT defeat in '57

Hondo should also definitely be on this list, was also 10x All-NBA and arguably the best player on 3 championship teams ('68, '69, '74)

I'd swap those two with Pippen & Mikan. I understand Mikan completely dominated his era, and I wouldn't blame someone for putting him top 25, but he just played in an unprecedentedly different era from anyone else on that list. Not counting his final season in '56, when he was a shell of himself, Mikan never played with a shot clock, and imo never went up against great competiton. Who was the best player he faced, Dolph Schayes? At least Pettit was in the shot clock era going up against the likes of Russell/Baylor/West/Wilt

That's completely fair, FWIW both Hondo and Petit's name crossed my mind when trying to make my last few picks.

[ShawkFactory]

What would Bill Russell be if he made the league today then?

Ben Wallace but smarter and better all-around.

And dominant force and sure-fire MVP candidate.

[Dragonyeuw]

Very good list, and nearly identical to mine except that I have KAJ over Wilt.

Its great seeing another poster rate Shaq accordingly. His value and dominance couldn't be more understated with these garbage media rankings.

When I first thought up the list, I had Kareem over Wilt. I can't even recall what was the deciding factor in me picking Wilt. Hell, if I had to do this tomorrow, I'd probably pick Kareem. I see Lebron23 above asking how is Wilt the 2nd best player. The thing is, there isn't much separation at the very top. 1-10 at THIS level....the details are incredibly fine. Which is why I don't tend to get caught up a great deal in specific rankings unless they are way out in left field.