Anyone that doesn't think Worthy would've 4-peated with MJ from 87-91'...

[SouBeachTalents]

In fairness to Worthy they didn't have an All-NBA 3rd team until the '89 season. But even if you take away Pippen's 3rd teams, he still has more than double Worthy's selections

[Hey Yo]

PLAYOFFS

* 87' Worthy...... 24 on 59%
* 88' Worthy...... 21 on 53% (FMVP)
* 89' Worthy...... 25 on 57%
* 90' Worthy...... 24 on 53%
* 91' Worthy...... 20 on 49%

* Lakers' scoring leader

The Bulls win from 89-91' with Worthy because they were already nearly winning with nothing from Pippen - so the goat dominance that Worthy had (shown above) would surely beat the Pistons in place of Pippen's 10 on 40% (89'), or 16 on 42% (90')

Worthy was the "Piston-killer" - he owned and dominated the Pistons and Celtics, just like MJ did - those teams wouldn't know how to face 2 athletic wings at the same time - that was the allure of mj/pip (2 athletic wings coming at you) and Worthy/MJ would bring the same unstoppable dynamic, except far more potent offensively.

LOL @ thinking Worthy still puts up those numbers while getting his FGA attempts cut in half by MJ.

[3ball]

LOL @ thinking Worthy still puts up those numbers while getting his FGA attempts cut in half by MJ.

You misunderstand

Lebron's skillset is heavily weighted towards ball-dominance, so he doesn't fit with certain guys and therefore craters certain guys

Otoh, Jordan's diverse on-ball and off-ball skillset fit with everyone - so everyone took a 1-2 point haircut when he came back in 95' and therefore played to 90% capacity alongside him.. it was an equitable reduction across the board (optimal), whereas lebron craters stars (suboptimal)

[Axe]

You misunderstand

Lebron's skillset doesn't fit with certain guys and therefore craters certain guys, whereas Jordan's superior skillset fit with everyone, so everyone took a 1-2 point haircut when he came back in 1995 and therefore played to 95% capacity alongside him

You say everyone but nothing significant happened during his years with the wizards

[3ball]

You say everyone but nothing significant happened during his years with the wizards

Jordan was old.. no one considers his play at 38-40 years old a reflection of his prime capability

Ultimately, Jordan allowed an equitable reduction across the board (optimal), whereas lebron craters stars (suboptimal)..

lebron craters certain guys because his skills are limited (no off-ball, so he can't fit forwards or sub-par shooting ball-handlers, aka Hughes, Ingram, Wade, Bosh, Love, etc)

[Axe]

Jordan was old.. no one considers his play at 38-40 years old a reflection of his prime capability

Ultimately, Jordan allowed an equitable reduction across the board (optimal), whereas lebron craters stars (suboptimal)

You say no one but he still preferred to be the perennial ballhog he is to his younger peers in dc, despite his age back then.

[Micku]

OP is making a fool of himself even more than usual on this one.

I know this is a like a troll bait for 3ball.

To be fair, Pippen wouldn't have made those all nba 1st team in the 80s probably. There was no 3rd all nba team till like 89. And the competition was high. He ain't getting over Bird and he would have to compete with Barkley with his best years in the 80s, Karl Malone or Mchale for a bit. In the early 80s Dr. J and Wilkins at his peak. The 80s was stacked with talent. The fact that Worthy only got 3rd team shows how stacked it was with the top tier talent.

You can make a comment on how weak the 90s were in compared to the 80s, but that's true in almost every era. The 80s had like the GOATs or arguable GOATs in almost every position. Most of them were in their prime. He'll be great defensively and definitely win some 1st teams, but in some years he gott'a compete with Bobby Jones, Rodman, Mchale at his peak, Paul Pressey and etc. It'll be fierce. Pippen would win those 1st teams more often than not in his prime.

[3ball]

I know this is a like a troll bait for 3ball.

To be fair, Pippen wouldn't have made those all nba 1st team in the 80s probably. There was no 3rd all nba team till like 89. And the competition was high. He ain't getting over Bird and he would have to compete with Barkley with his best years in the 80s, Karl Malone or Mchale for a bit. In the early 80s Dr. J and Wilkins at his peak. The 80s was stacked with talent. The fact that Worthy only got 3rd team shows how stacked it was with the top tier talent.

You can make a comment on how weak the 90s were in compared to the 80s, but that's true in almost every era. The 80s had like the GOATs or arguable GOATs in almost every position. Most of them were in their prime. He'll be great defensively and definitely win some 1st teams, but in some years he gott'a compete with Bobby Jones, Rodman, Mchale at his peak, Paul Pressey and etc. It'll be fierce. Pippen would win those 1st teams more often than not in his prime.

The only reason Pippen got all-nba over Hill was because of the winning spotlight (jordan) - everyone thought Grant Hill was a sleeker, advanced version of Pippen and infact comparable to Jordan, not Pippen.

These are the facts regardless of any trolling you want to do in response.. Hill > Pippen.. ditto Penny.. Pippen was mainly a defender and was routinely outplayed by fringe stars like Schrempf, Mashburn, Glenn Robinson, Mullin - basically everyone because it wasn't hard to outdo pippen's sub-par production rate.

Btw, Worthy was only 3rd team because of the stacked comp at SF in the 80's - you're right about that - so that means pippen isn't all-nba at all in the 80's... he's literally a role player defender that didn't fit into the scoring-oriented, iso 80's.

Finally, no one considers pippen on Barkley's level.. he's nowhere near Barkley, Malone, or any "1st option Finals guy", which is how I describe the top players of the 90's - they were all 1st options on Finals teams, aka Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Jordan, Ewing, Hakeem, Drexler - this is the top tier of the 90's and Pippen isn't on their level.

[TheCorporation]

OP is making a fool of himself even more than usual on this one.

Well that's a wrap boys and girls. Close it up and pack it out.

[3ball]

Well that's a wrap boys and girls. Close it up and pack it out.

All-nba awards are decided by Rachel Nichols and other Joe the Plumbers whose groupthink favors winners - and in previous eras, there were no advanced stats, so no one knew Pippen sucked.. but in today's statistical era, pippen would be correctly viewed as a defender role player

More importantly, Pippen was among the worst playoff performers ever - he would never be an all-star if it was based on Playoffs (maybe in 91' and 92' but that's it)

He never dominated a series - think about that - otoh, Worthy was literally the best player for an entire Playoffs and FMVP.. guys like KJ, Reggie Lewis and others thoroughly dominated series and were the best player in many series

[TheCorporation]

All-nba awards are decided by Rachel Nichols and other Joe the Plumbers whose groupthink favors winners - and in previous eras, there were no advanced stats, so no one knew Pippen sucked.. but in today's statistical era, pippen would be correctly viewed as a defender role player

More importantly, Pippen was among the worst playoff performers ever - he would never be an all-star if it was based on Playoffs (maybe in 91' and 92' but that's it)

He never dominated a series - think about that - otoh, Worthy was literally the best player for an entire Playoffs and FMVP.. guys like KJ, Reggie Lewis and others thoroughly dominated series and were the best player in many series

Bro, YOU are "Rachel Nichols." You are Joe the Plumber...Not them. You're a casual moron. Get a grip.

[3ball]

Bro, YOU are "Rachel Nichols." You are Joe the Plumber...Not them. You're a casual moron. Get a grip.

They're journalism majors and have no knowledge of basketball more than you or me

The only people that aren't casual fans are the players, coaches, and certainly the team executives that draft players and make trades.

Secondly, there were no advanced stats in previous eras, so no one knew Pippen sucked.. but in today's statistical era, pippen would be correctly viewed as a defender role player

Finally, all-nba is a regular season award, which means little because Pippen was among the worst playoff performers ever - he would never be an all-star if it was based on Playoffs (maybe in 91' and 92' but that's it.. his 2.0 BPM in the 93' Playoffs is the lowest ever for a winning sidekick and not all-star caliber, while his 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs isn't all-star caliber either, aka horrible in 3 straight Finals and 2 ECF).

He never dominated a series - think about that - whereas Worthy was FMVP over all the goats and the leading scorer on back-to-back champs.... guys like KJ, Reggie Lewis and others thoroughly dominated series and were the best player in many series.. whereas pippen played like Robert Horry in the 95' Finals - that's standard Pippen caliber.

[AirBonner]

Thread cliffs: MJ couldn’t win without Pippen.

[3ball]

Thread cliffs: MJ couldn’t win without Pippen.

Pippen had low peak scoring average (half the league could match it) - so he was a 2nd option and therefore inferior to elite 1st options that played sidekick like Wade, AD, Kyrie, Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, McHale, Worthy, etc, etc

2nd option < 1st option

[AirBonner]

Pippen had low peak scoring average (half the league could match it) - so he was a 2nd option and therefore inferior to elite 1st options that played sidekick like Wade, AD, Kyrie, Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, McHale, Worthy, etc, etc

2nd option < 1st option

So how did MJ do without Pippen?