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Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
SMH at ISH. New low, seriously. These parasites jump into every thread with the same old sh*t.
Originally Posted by Da_Realist
Jordan just eats you up, doesn't he?
Nope.
Point of this thread or recent threads isn't to discredit MJ, just trying to get a bit more recognition for Bird and other players. I've been bothered a lot by the Magic = GOAT or Magic > Bird posts lately. It's the same reason I made the Kareem thread, not anti-Jordan by any means, just trying to make posters more aware of my other favorite players (who are more proned to being snubbed). Only reason Jordan pops up is because, I think it's the best way to get the point across (if players like Bird/Kareem occupied an MJ-like zone at their peak, if not better in Kareem's case, people get the point quicker of how great they were).
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I rule the local playground
Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
Originally Posted by Carbine
and since people love per game stats so much, his are actually better given the context on both Michael' team and his own team.
I can agree with the argument that Bird's raw stats may be better given the context of team strength, but what about the defense component? Those stats don't give justice to Jordan's defense that year.
I agree though there is definitely an argument for both of them, you can't really go wrong.
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Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
Alas, Jordan be the deserving recipient of such an award. This be the proper list of changes in the last two decades in accordance to creedence of the wise man.
1990 - Barkley over Magic
1997 - Jordan over Malone
1998 - Malone over Jordan
2005- O'Neal over Nash
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Speed Demon
Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
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NBA rookie of the year
Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
Originally Posted by Carbine
Why are people using Jordan' teammates and then using his stats to validate their assertion that Jordan actually deserved it more....
All that shows is that Jordan actually had more on his shoulders, so that's why he has better per game scoring numbers.... Bird putting up 30/9/6 on a great team where he didn't dominate the ball... that statistical dominance might never be seen again from a player on such a good team. LeBron put up great numbers this year and in years past but he never had the players around him to where he didn't feel he had to do as much, and a team where the ball wasn't in his hands the majority of the time.
I actually feel like Bird deserved it as much as Jordan did that year - obviously Michael had a great year, but like someone else said... Bird had a great feel for the game back then and was probably only rivaled in that aspect by Magic.... and since people love per game stats so much, his are actually better given the context on both Michael' team and his own team.
Bird had a peak that can go against anyone in the history of the game.
You're right. They were at 2 different points in their careers. Jordan had to shoulder so much of the load so his accomplishments were needed for Chicago to be competitive. Bird was allowed to play in his upper register. He didn't have the minute by minute pressure of having to play his absolute best for the Celtics to be competitive. He picked and chose his spots. Jordan wasn't able to play in his upper register until about 1991.
This is why, in my opinion, Jordan deserved the MVP that year. It's easy to lose your focus or relax when you have to play at 100% capacity every game just to be competitive. If I could use an analogy -- Both guys drove cross-country and made good time, but Bird drove a Benz with plush leather seating, dual air-condition settings for driver and passenger, tinted windows and a 6 disk cd-changer. Jordan drove a Prius. And Bird barely nudged him out at the finish line.
Even in the playoffs, they played the same team. Jordan's team lost in five to the Pistons (and he put up 28 points, 5 assists, 9 rebounds, 50 fg%). The Celtics lost in 6 (and should have been less because Mchale's game-tying three in Game 2 WAS NOT A THREE). I don't know what Larry's overall numbers were but I do know he struggled while shooting 41% from the field.
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Verticle?
Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
Originally Posted by Fatal9
SMH at ISH. New low, seriously. These parasites jump into every thread with the same old sh*t.
Nope.
Point of this thread or recent threads isn't to discredit MJ, just trying to get a bit more recognition for Bird and other players. I've been bothered a lot by the Magic = GOAT or Magic > Bird posts lately. It's the same reason I made the Kareem thread, not anti-Jordan by any means, just trying to make posters more aware of my other favorite players (who are more proned to being snubbed). Only reason Jordan pops up is because, I think it's the best way to get the point across (if players like Bird/Kareem occupied an MJ-like zone at their peak, if not better in Kareem's case, people get the point quicker of how great they were).
Get the notion of Kareem being better out of your head, because even you know it's not true.
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Local High School Star
Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
Originally Posted by Carbine
Why are people using Jordan' teammates and then using his stats to validate their assertion that Jordan actually deserved it more....
All that shows is that Jordan actually had more on his shoulders, so that's why he has better per game scoring numbers.... Bird putting up 30/9/6 on a great team where he didn't dominate the ball... that statistical dominance might never be seen again from a player on such a good team. LeBron put up great numbers this year and in years past but he never had the players around him to where he didn't feel he had to do as much, and a team where the ball wasn't in his hands the majority of the time.
I actually feel like Bird deserved it as much as Jordan did that year - obviously Michael had a great year, but like someone else said... Bird had a great feel for the game back then and was probably only rivaled in that aspect by Magic.... and since people love per game stats so much, his are actually better given the context on both Michael' team and his own team.
Bird had a peak that can go against anyone in the history of the game.
Bird's season would have been an MVP season any other year but MJ's was out of the world that season. He dominated both ends more then Bird did. They both were practically on the same level offensively but Jordan dominated Bird defensively that season. Farthermore, MJ anchored a top 4 defensive squad that season while Larry Legend occupied 17th ranked. The reason I say MJ anchored it is because he was the clear cut best defender on that team.
MJ also lost only 7 less games despite a much weaker supporting cast then Bird's. Fatal is clearly giving no respect to Bird's cast in his post.
MJ's three best scorers besides him featured Sam Vincent who missed 55 games (13 ppg), Oakley (12 ppg), and Dave fu*king Corzine (10 ppg). MJ scored 1/3 of his teams points that season.
Bird's three best scorers besides him featured McHale who only missed 19 games (23 ppg, 8 RPG), Ainge who played the entire season (16 ppg), Parrish who only missed 9 games and was still superior to any teammate MJ had (14/9), and DJ who only missed 5 games and still put up 13 ppg and 8 apg. That is a far better supporting cast then MJ's and Bird only won 7 more games?
MJ had to shoulder a much bigger load then Larry did that season.
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I rule the local playground
Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
I just feel that Jordan's resume that season was far too eye-popping to ignore. I mean think about averaging 35 points per game in a season. Kobe did that a couple years ago, recall how amazing it was. Now, think about doing that while winning the DPOY award at the same time! And then you're individual dominance is directly leading to team success (50 wins on a mediocre cast) how could you go wrong?? I can see the argument for Bird, but Jordan was definitely deserving as well
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Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
Originally Posted by Younggrease
9 year old Kobe was at least as skilled as anyone in that weak era...
Execute thyself for such foolish gibberish. The proper merciless method of handling such anguish bearing words be so horrifying it will slap the stupid out of you. Thou shan't all but change thyself in to a fellow wise man so that all the kindred creedence of the land be shared in a likeness with your new philosophies.
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I rule the local playground
Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
Last edited by Alpha Wolf; 06-29-2009 at 11:42 PM.
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Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
at Kobe being brought in to this, and literally every thread. You can clearly see who the first ones to bring him up in the thread are. Seriously, let go of this obsession, not everything is connected to him in a roundabout way.
People wonder why I call Jordan's career lucky. THIS is why, he had the best of both worlds. In historical context, apparently putting up great stats on crappy teams is worth more than Bird having these incredible seasons while sharing the ball with other great players on better teams.
at anyone who doesn't think Bird drops several 30+ ppg/10+ rpg/5-7 apg seasons in his prime on a ****ty team (while leading them to 45-52 wins). Apparently that's just as valuable as what he did while winning 60+ games and championships though.
Originally Posted by plowking
Get the notion of Kareem being better out of your head, because even you know it's not true.
Depends on what your criteria is. On a conventional list, Jordan is clearly the greatest. Kareem/Wilt were better at their peak and were more valuable to their teams, just had the misfortune of being on bad teams for their primes (they couldn't shoot 40% in a series against the toughest opponent and wind up winning it).
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Banned
Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
Well Bird lost with HCA that year so it doesn't matter.
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Banned
Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
Originally Posted by Alpha Wolf
hmmm
Kobe is still playing he's only 30 years old he has 4 rings and he is just getting started
Jordan is retired and will NEVER play again
Kobe >>> Mike
and by the end of his career he'll have more rings
Kobe has 4 rings and is only 30 yrs old.......cry haters
Doesn't matter, he will never have won as the man more times, and he will never have as many finals mvp's, league mvp's. He will never led the league in Win Shares nor PER and he won't have the highest scoring average in the season, playoffs and finals.
Thus he will always be behind MJ. However, Kobe will still be with Vince Carter as Vince has never had an allstar big man to play with.
Regular Season
Kobe Bryant
25.1 ppg, 45.5% fg, 34.1% 3pt FG, 5.3 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.6 bpg, 2.9 tpg, 23.6 per
Vince Carter
23.5 ppg, 44.7% fg, 37.6% 3 pt FG, 5.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.8 bpg, 2.4 tpg, 21.4 per
Playoffs
Kobe Bryant
25.0 ppg, 44.7% fg, 32.9% 3pt FG, 5.1 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg, 22.0 per
Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg, 21.4 per
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I rule the local playground
Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
Originally Posted by Duncan21formvp
Doesn't matter, he will never have won as the man more times, and he will never have as many finals mvp's, league mvp's. He will never led the league in Win Shares nor PER and he won't have the highest scoring average in the season, playoffs and finals.
Thus he will always be behind MJ. However, Kobe will still be with Vince Carter as Vince has never had an allstar big man to play with.
Regular Season
Kobe Bryant
25.1 ppg, 45.5% fg, 34.1% 3pt FG, 5.3 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.6 bpg, 2.9 tpg, 23.6 per
Vince Carter
23.5 ppg, 44.7% fg, 37.6% 3 pt FG, 5.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.8 bpg, 2.4 tpg, 21.4 per
Playoffs
Kobe Bryant
25.0 ppg, 44.7% fg, 32.9% 3pt FG, 5.1 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg, 22.0 per
Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg, 21.4 per
GTFOH
u haters always claim the only reason Kobe got his first 3 rings was cause of Shaq
well why don't you acknowledge that Kobe's numbers suffered cause for 7 years he shared the ball with another guy who scored 25+ ppg perennially.
If Kobe was gunning like Mike from the second he came into the league he would be destroying Mike's numbers.
Kobe scored 81 pts in a game.......MJ never did that
Kobe scored 50+ pts in 4 straight games......MJ never did that
Kobe has countless games where he had 50+ pts at the end of 3 qtrs and didn't play the 4th.......MJ never did that
Kobe >>> Mike
and by the end of his career he'll have more rings
only 30 years old
only 30 years old
haters .....
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Re: Who would you have given the '88 MVP to?
Originally Posted by Alpha Wolf
hmmm
Kobe is still playing he's only 30 years old he has 4 rings and he is just getting started
Jordan is retired and will NEVER play again
Kobe >>> Mike
and by the end of his career he'll have more rings
Kobe has 4 rings and is only 30 yrs old.......cry haters
What exactly makes Kobe better than Jordan? Was he stronger, faster, smarter... what is it precisely? The only argument you have is long range shooting, but Jordan trumps him in 3% in the playoffs. Why is Kobe- playing in a weak era geared toward perimeter scoring, the same size as Jordan more or less, playing the same position, playing in the same offensive system, playing for the same coach... unable to accomplish even half of what Jordan has besides that fact that he (Kobe) has had better teams around him his entire career and playing longer as a Laker than Jordan did as a Bull? That's the million $ question.
Or we can take the easy route, tell me why Kobe in his prime isn't even the second best player in the league?
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