Replace Pippen's 15 ppg on 34% from 96' Finals with 2011 or 2012 Wade

[Bankaii]

1-9.

This is all I read because it's all I asked for, and you still couldn't put a simple yes. I don't need your bullshit false context.

Also, you act as if Pippen was trash and Jordan never had any help, so why should having no All starts all of a sudden matter now?

[3ball]

Clearly you hate lebron more than you actually like Jordan.

I don't hate Lebron at all.. I hate how he's compared to MJ.

He isn't anywhere close.. People actually think it's close.. I've been trying to explain how it isn't.

Maybe after Lebron has a few more cakewalks to the Finals and ends up 2/11... THEN people will finally start scratching their head... Hmmm... How could this guy be anywhere near MJ?

Lebron's less diverse and less adjustable style prevents his teams from using optimal, cutting edge strategy.. Instead, it's the opposite - Lebron's Finals opponents are the ones employing the superior, cutting-edge strategy (i.e. Spurs, Dallas, Warriors) - they're the teams that are considered the "smart" teams in the league, not Lebron's.

Otoh, MJ's teams were like the Warriors, Dallas, or Spurs - they employed cutting edge strategy and were perceived as one of the league's smart teams.. MJ's GOAT offensive sophistication provided the necessary adjustability and capacity to be the centerpiece of cutting edge strategy (the triangle).

Unfortunately, Lebron-ball's rigid, straightforward approach means it can never be part of a smart team that uses cutting edge strategy... This precludes him from ever being part of an all-time great team.. All-time great teams are always smart teams that use cutting edge strategy over an extended period of time, which gives the team a sustainable advantage on the rest of the league (i.e. Pistons, Bulls, Celtics, Spurs).
.

[3ball]

Maybe after Lebron has a few more cakewalks to the Finals and ends up 2/11, THEN people will finally start scratching their head... Hmmm... How could this guy be anywhere near MJ?

Lebron's less diverse and less adjustable style prevents his teams from using optimal, cutting edge strategy.. Instead, it's the opposite - Lebron's Finals opponents are the ones employing the superior, cutting-edge strategy (i.e. Spurs, Dallas, Warriors) - they're the teams that are considered the "smart" teams in the league, not Lebron's.

Otoh, MJ's teams were like the Warriors, Dallas, or Spurs - they employed cutting edge strategy and were perceived as one of the league's smart teams.. MJ's GOAT offensive sophistication provided the necessary adjustability and capacity to be the centerpiece of cutting edge strategy (the triangle).

Unfortunately, Lebron-ball's rigid, straightforward approach means it can never be part of a smart team that uses cutting edge strategy... This precludes him from ever being part of an all-time great team.. All-time great teams are always smart teams that use cutting edge strategy over an extended period of time, which gives the team a sustainable advantage on the rest of the league (i.e. Pistons, Bulls, Celtics, Spurs).

Also, MJ employed a more optimal, off-ball style that allowed him to achieve GOAT stats without diminishing the stats of teammates - imagine if Bosh's stats REMAINED at 20/10 alongside Lebron..

That's what happened for Pippen and Kukoc alongside MJ, while Kerr/Paxson/BJ never sucked like Chalmers/Cole/Battier.. Teammates didn't have to abandon their comfort zones alongside MJ and could maintain their normal statistical production, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement.. In hindsight, 6/6 is no surprise.

[nzahir]

But was Mj 1-9 without scottie?
If you dont answer the question then nothing you state is true

[warriorfan]

But was Mj 1-9 without scottie?
If you dont answer the question then nothing you state is true

[LAZERUSS]

How about Pippen's 21/9.4/6.6/2.4/1 in 91?
21/8/7.7/1.5 in 92?
21.8./9.2/7.7/2/1 in 93?
20/8/3.5/1.7/1.8 in 97?
16/7/5/1.7 in 98?

And 96 wasn't even that bad. 15.7/8.2/5.3/2.3/1.3? Give that to LeBron this finals instead of JR or Shump, and you have the chip. Those numbers above are all better than what Wade or Bush put up in the 2014 finals.

And let's not forget Pippen is doing all this while being the greatest defensive perimeter player all time.

Jordan, himself, wasn't all that great in his '96 Finals, either (27-5-4 on a .415 FG%.) Fortunately for him, he had the best defensive roster in the league.

[Trollsmasher]

Imagine a defensive juggernaut, taking away the best teams scorer in each series. ie. Durant drops from 30 ppg to 15. Melo drops his ppg from 25 to 15ppg on worse efficiency etc. Westbrook gets neutralized

This advantage allows the opposing teams offense to be completely neutralized slowing the pace, and not requiring much scoring from the Bulls therefore Pippen scoring only 15 ppg was acceptable


So its Pippins 15ppg average PLUS the 15 ppg he is stopping on the other side of the ball giving a NET impact of +30 ppg for the Bulls in addition to his rebounding and passing.


Taking Pippen away from the Bulls is like subtracting 30 points from the Bulls final score.

Try doing that, subtract the Bulls playoff scores by 30 points from 1991-1998, tell me how many games they would win maybe 1 or 2 at most, forget about winning championships.


And this idea works well, because the Bulls did in fact only win 1 playoff game without Pippen[/I] [I]proving that my argument makes sense


CLIFFS: Adding Pippen to your roster, is like adding an additional 30 points to your final score on top of whatever the Bulls were able to produce.

1-9 btw

[TheMan]

I just checked - 15 PPG on 34% field goal percentage IS the WOAT.. Literally the worst of all time.

There is no 2nd option in history that shot so horrifically in the Finals, let alone on such low PPG.

As for his 1998 Finals - again, below-average at best for a 2nd option - 15 PPG on 41%, including 6 and 8 points in the final 2 games... There have been few worse 2nd option performances.

To be fair, Pip was struggling with a bad back.

Doesn't matter anyway, the LeStans want to prop Pippen up as though he was a FMVP and leader of a title winning team like Wade was because they have zero arguments that LeBron is better than Jordan, so they only thing left is to claim Pippen was a top 5 GOAT or some shit Everyone can see through their bullshit but I gotta give them credit, they're persistent af

[Mr Feeny]

Jordan, himself, wasn't all that great in his '96 Finals, either (27-5-4 on a .415 FG%.) Fortunately for him, he had the best defensive roster in the league.

Agreed in the sense that they elevated their play in the finals. Real clutch and mental strength and very much contrary to what Wilt Chamberlain was known for when the stakes were high. 18 ppg in NBA finals for a reason, but I digress.

[Mr Feeny]

To be fair, Pip was struggling with a bad back.

Doesn't matter anyway, the LeStans want to prop Pippen up as though he was a FMVP and leader of a title winning team like Wade was because they have zero arguments that LeBron is better than Jordan, so they only thing left is to claim Pippen was a top 5 GOAT or some shit Everyone can see through their bullshit but I gotta give them credit, they're persistent af

Nobody is giving him flack for stinking up the place because he had a bad back but the few kids on here who weren't alive back then and are trying to convince themselves that Pippen deserved the finals mvp is just laughable He basically did NOTHING the last two games.

[Ne 1]

But was Mj 1-9 without scottie?
If you dont answer the question then nothing you state is true

You asked a loaded question, and facts without context are meaningless. It's not MJ's fault that he played just 3 out of 10 years of his Bulls career without Pippen. Jordan only had his first 3 seasons without Scottie.

In '85 he was a ROOKIE, yet still led the Bulls to a substantial improvement and had one of the best rookie seasons in NBA history. The #7 seed Bulls went against the #2 seed Bucks in the playoffs and lost 1-3. No big deal. In '86 he only started in 7 regular season games due to injury and they were 5-2 in those games. Chicago as the #8 seed ends up drawing the legendary 86' Celtics and lost 0-3. In '87 he had one of the worst supporting casts in history (especially relative to the league) yet still won 40 games -- and he had to average 40+ ppg/53% FG in the Chicago wins to do it. That team was garbage outside of MJ. They got to the playoffs as the #8 seed and faced the legendary Celtics again and lost 0-3. Expecting the Bulls to win a single game against the 1986/1987 Celtics, one of the greatest teams in NBA history as the 8th seed or to upset the Bucks as the 7th seed his rookie season really shows a lack of understanding.

[LAZERUSS]

Agreed in the sense that they elevated their play in the finals. Real clutch and mental strength and very much contrary to what Wilt Chamberlain was known for when the stakes were high. 18 ppg in NBA finals for a reason, but I digress.

Yep...the Wilt who ELEVATED his rebounding and FG%'s in the Finals. And the Wilt who dominated defensively with 7+ bpg in his Finals. The Chamberlain, who on one leg, hung a 23-24 .625 series, which included a must-win game six of 45-27 (on 20-27 shooting), and game seven of 21-24 10-16. The Chamberlain who put up a 29-28 .517 Finals against Russell. The Wilt, who at age 35, chopped down a peak Kareem in the WCF's, and then DOMINATED the Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals...en route to a FMVP. The Wilt who slaughtered a peak Thurmond in the '67 Finals (just ask Kareem about Nate,..who dramatically lowered Kareem's post-season numbers), and led his team to yet another title.

Of course, I am sure that you can find many other "GOATs" who had 29-28 .517 and 23-24 .625 Finals, right?



Yep...THAT Chamberlain.

[Nash]

I don't hate Lebron at all.. I hate how he's compared to MJ.

He isn't anywhere close.. People actually think it's close.. I've been trying to explain how it isn't.

Maybe after Lebron has a few more cakewalks to the Finals and ends up 2/11... THEN people will finally start scratching their head... Hmmm... How could this guy be anywhere near MJ?

Lebron's less diverse and less adjustable style prevents his teams from using optimal, cutting edge strategy.. Instead, it's the opposite - Lebron's Finals opponents are the ones employing the superior, cutting-edge strategy (i.e. Spurs, Dallas, Warriors) - they're the teams that are considered the "smart" teams in the league, not Lebron's.

Otoh, MJ's teams were like the Warriors, Dallas, or Spurs - they employed cutting edge strategy and were perceived as one of the league's smart teams.. MJ's GOAT offensive sophistication provided the necessary adjustability and capacity to be the centerpiece of cutting edge strategy (the triangle).

Unfortunately, Lebron-ball's rigid, straightforward approach means it can never be part of a smart team that uses cutting edge strategy... This precludes him from ever being part of an all-time great team.. All-time great teams are always smart teams that use cutting edge strategy over an extended period of time, which gives the team a sustainable advantage on the rest of the league (i.e. Pistons, Bulls, Celtics, Spurs).
.

first of all, yes you do hate lebron. Let's not kid ourselves here.

Also, if lebron leads his team to 11 finals you seriously think people will start realizing how overrated he is? do you even understand how amazing of an accomplishment making 11 finals is?

[Magic 32]

Why are Lebron stans still fighting this fight?

It's OVER

[guy]

Imagine a defensive juggernaut, taking away the best teams scorer in each series. ie. Durant drops from 30 ppg to 15. Melo drops his ppg from 25 to 15ppg on worse efficiency etc. Westbrook gets neutralized

This advantage allows the opposing teams offense to be completely neutralized slowing the pace, and not requiring much scoring from the Bulls therefore Pippen scoring only 15 ppg was acceptable


So its Pippins 15ppg average PLUS the 15 ppg he is stopping on the other side of the ball giving a NET impact of +30 ppg for the Bulls in addition to his rebounding and passing.


Taking Pippen away from the Bulls is like subtracting 30 points from the Bulls final score.

Try doing that, subtract the Bulls playoff scores by 30 points from 1991-1998, tell me how many games they would win maybe 1 or 2 at most, forget about winning championships.


And this idea works well, because the Bulls did in fact only win 1 playoff game without Pippen[/I] [I]proving that my argument makes sense


CLIFFS: Adding Pippen to your roster, is like adding an additional 30 points to your final score on top of whatever the Bulls were able to produce.

No it's not. This is complete horseshit you have no idea what you're talking about if you think ANY defender is holding down someone like Durant to those kind of numbers. Neither Pippen or even Jordan were holding worse players then Durant down that much below their averages.