Bulls First 3 Peat vs Bulls Second 3 Peat

[Da_Realist]

@Da Realist

What do you think of the match-up between FTP MJ vs STP MJ? Who could give more problems to the other team? I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this. Thnx


back on topic.

Personally I do think that the 2nd Three Peat team was better, prolly cause of STP Pip(better player IMO), Worm and the bench.

I still pretty much agree with what I said earlier...

I believe the 1st 3Peat (F3P) Bulls were better than the 2nd 3Peat
(S3P) Bulls.

First, the F3P Bulls were younger. The S3P Bulls couldn't keep up with
those young guys. F3P Michael was better, more efficient and could
raise his game even higher if he wanted to (he could have broken 70 in
game 1 of the 92 Finals, for example). S3P MJ couldn't have done that.

F3P Pippen and S3P Pippen basically cancel each other out. However
Grant was more versatile than Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman was a great
rebounder but he was 35-37 years old when he played for the Bulls. He
was a much better player in Detroit than he was in Chicago.

Rodman averaged 5.2 pts, 2.8 asts, 15.3 rebs, 0.6 stls, 0.3 blks, 2.0
tov on 45 fg% in F3P.
Grant averaged 13.4 pts, 2.5 asts, 9.3 rebs, 1.2 stls, 1.3 blks, 1.3
tov on 54 fg% in S3P.
Grant averaged more points, more steals, more blocks, less turnovers
and he shot a LOT better from the field.
This doesn't take into account the havoc Grant created on the floor
defensively (full court and half court) and it also doesn't measure
the distractions, suspensions and drama Rodman brought to the table
every year he was in Chicago. Rodman missed an average of 15 games per
season during the S3P, Grant only missed an average of 3 games during the F3P.

S3P Ron Harper was a real advantage defensively over F3P John Paxson
but John's advantage was his sharpshooting and clutchness. Ron gets
the edge here, but John's defensive deficiency would be cancelled out
because of the extra versatility of a young MJ and Pippen (full court
defense, half court defense, more spring and more stamina) that S3P MJ
and Pip could not provide. In other words, the S3P Bulls needed Ron
Harper's 6-6 frame and defensive ability because MJ was too old to
chase down younger guys defensively and still have super-human
efficiency. With that said, S3P MJ still wasn't as efficient as the
F3P version.

The bench may be the only real advantage the S3P Bulls might have had
over the F3P version. However, the starters for the F3P team was just
plain better and more versatile than the starters for the S3P team.
They were younger, could play full-court defense or half-court
defense. MJ was holding down guards from Isiah Thomas to Clyde Drexler
while still shooting over 50% from the field. Horace was putting up
numbers without getting suspended every 5th game. John Paxson was a
dependable shooter in the clutch to take pressure off of double and
triple teams on MJ -- and when he lost a step, BJ Armstrong stepped
in.

Toni Kucoc was a spark for S3P offensively, but he was a huge
liability on defense. Soft as tissue paper. And fragile emotionally
too. If he didn't start, he'd sulk. The rest of the bench was full of
old stiffs like John Salley, James Edwards and Robert Parish. The
young Bulls had guys like BJ Armstrong, Cliff Levingston, Craig Hodges
and Scott Williams that would provide a real spark. Especially in the
91 and 92 playoffs.

The S3P Bulls had to pace themselves because of age. MJ, Scottie,
Harper and Rodman were all advanced in age and couldn't put out max
effort 48 min/game. They had trouble with young, athletic teams like
the Sonics and Lakers. They were smart enough to pick and choose when
to go all out and still win championships. The S3P Bulls was a great
team but they wouldn't have been able to pick and choose against the
F3P Bulls. MJ had the same heart and hunger but he had young legs and
stamina that amazed even other NBA stars.

As great as MJ was, he was known to get a little tired if he had to
carry too much of the load for too long in the S3P. He was good enough
to withstand it and lead his team because no one was good enough to
outlast him even at 90%. But we're talking about F3P MJ. That guy
never got tired. He was a machine.

It would be close but ultimately I choose F3P Bulls.

With that said, I think 92 Bulls were the best of the bunch with the 97 team not far behind. S3P team seemed to be more focused and committed to what they did best (run triangle, defend, rebound). F3P was more versatile in what they could do and was more willing to experiment more. Sometimes they were committed to the triangle, sometimes they just beat you on plain athleticism or let MJ do his thing. That happened in the S3P, but not as often. Because of that the S3P team didn't have as many lapses as the F3P team. But, I'd still go with the F3P team if forced to choose.

[97 bulls]

'91-93 Jordan was the greatest player of all-time...which is why I would never bet against him.

Oh come on bro. He wasnt that far off to make that kind of determination.

[97 bulls]

I still pretty much agree with what I said earlier...



With that said, I think 92 Bulls were the best of the bunch with the 97 team not far behind. S3P team seemed to be more focused and committed to what they did best (run triangle, defend, rebound). F3P was more versatile in what they could do and was more willing to experiment more. Sometimes they were committed to the triangle, sometimes they just beat you on plain athleticism or let MJ do his thing. That happened in the S3P, but not as often. Because of that the S3P team didn't have as many lapses as the F3P team. But, I'd still go with the F3P team if forced to choose.

This sounds more like a preference than a determination on which team was better. You make it seem as if a team running their offense to perfection is a bad thing.

An for the life of me i cant figure out why you would say the first threepeat team was more versitle. As i stated earlier. All their players did the exact same thing outside of Jordan and Pippen. Thats not versitle. And their offense? More a product of inimprovisation. Jordan still had a tendancy to try to take matters into his own hand. He was more of a team player during the second threepeat.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Oh come on bro. He wasnt that far off to make that kind of determination.

I think you really underestimate peak Jordan, man. Swap '91-93 with 96-98 MJ and you still think Chicago beats Riley's Knicks?

Here are my top 5 Bulls teams:

'92
'96
'93
'97
'91

[97 bulls]

I think you really underestimate peak Jordan, man. Swap '91-93 with 96-98 MJ and you still think Chicago beats Riley's Knicks?

Here are my top 5 Bulls teams:

'92
'96
'93
'97
'91

Absolutely. I mean, the knicks barely beat the Bulls without Jordan in 94.

Jordan FG% was higher during the first threepeat cuz he attacked the basket more. Seond threepeat Jordan took more jumpers and fadeaways in an effort to minimize tthe pounding and stamina loss. Not because he couldnt attack the basket anymore. Someone posted the Knicks scouting report on Jordan. The one thing that stood out to me was that in it, it said to make him a jumshooter. He only shot 41% on jumpers. This was prime Jordan (using your words). Second threepeat Jordan was primarily a jumpshooter. And shot a much better percentage on his jumpshots. Did you read that interview with John bach? To summarize, he said Jordan was more used in the post and a jumpshooter and did this to save energy. And that he wasnt really big on trying to dunk on everyone anymore. Not because he couldnt, but cuz it was no longer needed

As far as his defense, being able to use Ron Harper to defend the other players best perimeter players is a luxery. Jordan was still a great defender. They still were able to full court press a team and shut them down just look at what they did to Orlando in 96 and Indiana in 98. Jordan wasnt on the bench when the Bulls pressed. Jordan dominated a damn good and crafty and quick PG in Rod Strickland in 97.

The stamina thing is over blown. Like I stated earlier, in game 5 of the 93 finals, the Bulls coughed up a fourth quarer lead. The announcers said Jordan stated he got tired and couldnt finish. This was supposed to be prime (according to you) Jordan. Yes he got tired too. In game 6 of the 92 finals, Jackson sat jordan down cuz Jordan was gassed. Jordan was vehemently against joining the Dreamteam cuz he wanted to be able to rest from a tireing season. Yes Jordan got tired in his 20s too. Did he have as much stamina during the second threepeat? Perhaps not but it didnt matter cuz they had soo many guys that could take pressure and roles that those exploits werent needed. You had Harper, Brown, hell even Jud Buechler was an excellent man defender and athlete. Along with Jordan and Pippen.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Absolutely. I mean, the knicks barely beat the Bulls without Jordan in 94.

True, but the '92 and '93 Knicks were better teams. You raise valid points though (very good post btw). I just don't agree that '96-98 Jordan had the same impact '91-93 did. As you said, Mike in his 20's was a very good slasher and finisher. His playstyle put more pressure on defenses, whether it was fouling them out or finding shooters on the kick outs (FTP was also a better playmaker).

That bit on Jordan shooting 41% on his jumpers is a little disingenuous. I'm pretty sure that playbook was including his 3PT fieldgoals. I personally would love to see Mike's percentage from midrange during the first 3-peat. Way too many people underrate his shooting ability...you would think he was Lebron or something.

I'm a big fan of the '96-98 Bulls and I think the '96 and '97 teams would beat versions '91 and '93 on their best night. The biggest difference to me is Dennis Rodman and Pip. Worm didn't just pull down boards but also defended the oppositions best bigman. Guy was incredibly versatile. I loved his energy and electricity for STP. I think it was Jordan that said they wouldn't have won the second wave of titles without Rodman, or with Horace Grant. As for Pippen, dude was in his prime and helped Jordan by playing point forward orchestrating the Bulls offense.

Those two made STP dangerous. They're the main reason teams '91 and possibly '93 get eliminated in a 7 game series.

[97 bulls]

True, but the '92 and '93 Knicks were better teams. You raise valid points though (very good post btw). I just don't agree that '96-98 Jordan had the same impact '91-93 did. As you said, Mike in his 20's was a very good slasher and finisher. His playstyle put more pressure on defenses, whether it was fouling them out or finding shooters on the kick outs (FTP was also a better playmaker).

That bit on Jordan shooting 41% on his jumpers is a little disingenuous. I'm pretty sure that playbook was including his 3PT fieldgoals. I personally would love to see Mike's percentage from midrange during the first 3-peat. Way too many people underrate his shooting ability...you would think he was Lebron or something.

I'm a big fan of the '96-98 Bulls and I think the '96 and '97 teams would beat versions '91 and '93 on their best night. The biggest difference to me is Dennis Rodman and Pip. Worm didn't just pull down boards but also defended the oppositions best bigman. Guy was incredibly versatile. I loved his energy and electricity for STP. I think it was Jordan that said they wouldn't have won the second wave of titles without Rodman, or with Horace Grant. As for Pippen, dude was in his prime and helped Jordan by playing point forward orchestrating the Bulls offense.

Those two made STP dangerous. They're the main reason teams '91 and possibly '93 get eliminated in a 7 game series.

So what makes the 92 team the best? Surely not because they played the 92 Knicks?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So what makes the 92 team the best? Surely not because they played the 92 Knicks?

Short answer? Best combination of Jordan/Pippen. Better than any of the other title teams. It also didn't hurt to have Grant play the best season of his career (sans '94).

[NumberSix]

The Knicks got jobbed in '92 against the Bulls

[97 bulls]

Short answer? Best combination of Jordan/Pippen. Better than any of the other title teams. It also didn't hurt to have Grant play the best season of his career (sans '94).

I dont think there was much difference between Pippen in 92 or any other year between 92 and 97. I take that back. I do think Pippen became a different player from 94 on cuz he got to be the leader. He demanded respect and proved his worth. His status changed.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I dont think there was much difference between Pippen in 92 or any other year between 92 and 97. I take that back. I do think Pippen became a different player from 94 on cuz he got to be the leader. He demanded respect and proved his worth. His status changed.

I think you misunderstood me, 97. I'm not saying Pippen was better in '92 than he was from '94-98. To me, circa '92 was very close to his peak ('94-97) while Jordan was playing at a GOAT level. That's the difference.

From 1995-97, the Bulls had peak Pippen, but an out of prime Jordan (this is where we don't agree).

[NugzHeat3]

One thing you guys aren't mentioning is that Pippen was always banged up come playoff time during the second three peat. It didn't effect him on defense but it did hurt and limit his offensive game a good bit.

[StarJordan]

Hmm...

Johnny Pax > Steve Kerr
Horace Grant > Dennis
Ton Kukoc > Cliff Levingston
92 Jordan > 96 Jordan

On balance Gotta go with 92 Bulls as the winner in 7

[StarJordan]

Oh....Chicago Stadium beats United Center

[97 bulls]

I think you misunderstood me, 97. I'm not saying Pippen was better in '92 than he was from '94-98. To me, circa '92 was very close to his peak ('94-97) while Jordan was playing at a GOAT level. That's the difference.

From 1995-97, the Bulls had peak Pippen, but an out of prime Jordan (this is where we don't agree).

Which goes back to what Ive been saying for the longest. The only reason a person could ever choose the first threepeat Bulls over the second is the their feelings of Jordan. And theres nothing youve stated that would give an indication that Jordan was better besides a preference. And thats in spite of so many contrary povs. Most notably Jordan himself.
And thats kinda sad that you feel you know Jordan better than jordan himself.