Here's what I don't get about attempts to diminish Jordan

[RRR3]

His statistics are clearly better than most players ever, and his playoff stats are equally ridiculous. It's kind of silly to me when people act like Jordan being amazing is some media driven narrative. Now I didn't watch him play, so I can't make the arguments many here can, but if you research his career, I don't see how you can't see a guy with probably the best case for GOAT or at least top 3-5.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Various trolls have various idols and so will say any kind of shit about other players to try and make some dumbass argument for their hero. And now you know.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't see how you can't see a guy with probably the best case for GOAT or at least top 3-5.

Who doesn't have MJ in their top 5?

[KNOW1EDGE]

Who doesn't have MJ in their top 5?

Nobody smart, but multiple ISH posters have left him out of their top 5

[Legends66NBA7]

Who doesn't have MJ in their top 5?

John Salley most recently said he doesn't... like 2013.

But I'm pretty sure it's clear he has agenda. He put guys like Kevin McHale and Isiah Thomas over him. I forgot his reasoning, but yeah... it's weird because he said he was GOAT before the last couple of years.

[Roundball_Rock]

Anyone serious about them not thinking he is top 5?

There is a legitimate anti-MJ website out there and even the guy who runs it has MJ #5 all-time. http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/index.htm

#5) Michael Jordan

Strengths: Dominating scorer. No one was better at creating his own shot. He could attack the basket, pull up for the mid-range jump shot, or post up with a fade away. Legendary clutch plays in the age of prime time televised game were etched in cement. Before his 1993 retirement, he was probably the best defensive guard at roaming the passing lanes and one of the two best on-the-ball defenders at the guard position (I prefer Joe Dumars, but Jordan is at his level). He drew lots of defensive attention and had the ability to hit the open man. He had a rare, if unhealthy, competitive streak, and he dominated 4th quarters line no one.

Weaknesses: He couldn't play with drive-and-dish point guards, which are on about 95% of the teams. He was too turnover-prone and selfish to play the point guard (according to two of his coaches). He couldn't turn the Bulls and Wizards around like others on this list turned their teams around. When he retired, his impact was less than than the others on this list. Even in college, his team only met their expectations when he played a supporting role. He was extremely selfish - fighting with coaches about his scoring role and teammates who believed his points were more important to him than titles. He never proved his teams could be a big winner without the triangle offense, showing a limited ability to blend his game with different players and systems. If he plays on a team full of scorers, and he HAS to be leading scorer, how is that going to help his team win?

So even an admitted MJ "hater" has him #5.

[Sarcastic]

People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.

[GimmeThat]

because people get tired of the fact that a large amount of people don't understand that 6 finals and 6 finals MVP was also contributed to the fact that a perfect situation as well as him taking full advantage of it came along.

If they did, they'd think, oh, right, Bill Russell

and throwing KAJ at those who don't.


good luck with that.

[played0ut]

I watched him play (more the 2nd 3-peat). And hand-to-heart he was spectacular. I believe he's the best slasher to ever play (admittedly haven't seen Dr. J or Nique). He really could get to the rim whenever he wanted to, and that's with handchecking and no defensive 3 second rule.


Just look at two possessions in a row here, at 7:50 (thk -smak for the link)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu92R-UR12o

Lays it in around Hakeem first play. 2nd play he dekes out Maxell, and lays it in again, with Hakeem directly right in his chest. There no slashers since (NONE) that I've seen that can get to the basket at will like MJ (without sprinting and almost casually weaving around defenders).


Lol I'll be honest those drives around/over defenders wouldn't be possible if he didn't have massive hands. Phil Jackson DID say that those hands allowed him to manoeuvre in ways other players can't.

[KBaller33]

Dr. J didn't have MJ in his top 5. He had a whole bunch of old timers, guys who played before the 80's.

[Cousin Oliver]

I think some of it is just the age of the poster. It is indicative of a larger problem, especially online of needing to elevate the current over the past. We get so caught up in the emotionalism of the moment that it clouds our judgment. We also enjoy feeling apart of something great so have a tendency to elevate things we have witnessed ourselves. This also works in reverse when people declare current things "the worst ever".

So for example people who saw Kobe and LeBron but were too young to watch Jordan play want to devalue Jordan. They do this in a couple ways. They either elevate Kobe or LeBron by just outright declaring them better or they argue that Jordan wasn't better than past players like Wilt or Russell in an attempt to bring Jordan back in the pack.

I'm not even saying you can't make an argument for other guys like Kareem (you can) as GOAT. But to say Jordan isn't top 3 is utterly ridiculous.

[played0ut]

Even in college, his team only met their expectations when he played a supporting role. He was extremely selfish - fighting with coaches about his scoring role and teammates who believed his points were more important to him than titles. He never proved his teams could be a big winner without the triangle offense, showing a limited ability to blend his game with different players and systems. If he plays on a team full of scorers, and he HAS to be leading scorer, how is that going to help his team win?

Yeah, that's true but that was more before PJ. He wouldn't trust his teammates and refused to pass. A coach told him before "There's no 'I' in team" and he replied with "There's an "I" in win,"

He never proved his teams could be a big winner without the triangle offense, showing a limited ability to blend his game with different players and systems. If he plays on a team full of scorers, and he HAS to be leading scorer, how is that going to help his team win?

>That can't be held against him just because he was never put in a situation where he had to win with a different system.


And actually?


He has. Dream Team. He was the best player in their scrimmages-- and these weren't normal scrimmages AT ALL. These 10 HOF'ers were brutally competitive and would go at each other foaming at the mouth. They refused to listen to Chuck Daly one time when he wanted to end practice because they wanted to see who would win.

And in the scrimmages/Olympic games it wasn't just Jordan hogging the ball either. It was just pure, perfect, simple basketball (albeit quicker and more efficient). Everybody doing the right cuts, passes, trusting each other. (Barkley ended up being lead scorer)

More than half the Dream Teamers have said that playing against each other was some of the most beautiful, best basketball they've ever played in their entire lives.

[Cousin Oliver]

Dr. J didn't have MJ in his top 5. He had a whole bunch of old timers, guys who played before the 80's.

He said his list was the same list he had when he was a teenager. So basically it was all based on nostalgia. Nothing wrong with that but it's not a list made with the brain, it's a list made with his 17 year old heart.

[played0ut]

Dr. J didn't have MJ in his top 5. He had a whole bunch of old timers, guys who played before the 80's.

In his defense he made the list way back when and never intended to change it.

[KBaller33]

In his defense he made the list way back when and never intended to change it.

It's so weird. Why would he never consider changing his list? It's like 40 years outdated Unless he meant his favorite players of all time.