Kareem vs Wilt

[LAZERUSS]

You couldn't be any more wrong about rebounding. Let's count only player rebounds by summing the player totals...

In 1962, Wilt's Philadelphia Warriors were grabbing 70.6 rpg and Russell's Boston Celtics were grabbing 72.8 rpg.

In 1967, Wilt's Philadelphia 76ers were grabbing 65.3 rpg and Russell's Boston Celtics were grabbing 66.4 rpg.

It's clear for much of that decade that the rebounding totals were insanely inflated.

In 1970 which was Kareem's rookie season and the most fast paced of his career the average team was grabbing 52.9 rpg.

As far as inflation of numbers we're looking at 20-25% minimum for Wilt compared to Kareem and that of course doesn't include minutes played.

And why don't you for once acknowledge Kareem's shit sandwich in the 70's as far as injuries?

1972: Oscar, Jon McGlocklin, and Wali Jones injured
1974: Lucious Allen injured, missed the playoffs
1977: Kermit Washington missed the playoffs and Lucious Allen injured

Coincidentally these 3 years were Kareem's best shots to win and injuries to his teammates derailed his chances. And in all 3 of those postseasons Kareem's teams lost to the eventual champs with him playing on an extremely high level.

And stop mentioning Oscar as if he was some GOAT. He was a star only in his first season in Milwaukee (when they won an overwhelming title...) and then declined sharply partly due to injury and was never a major factor again.

Magic wasn't a superstar/pantheon level player until 1986-1987. You speak about Kareem and Magic but truth is their primes never even remotely overlapped. You think a 33+ year old Wilt playing for Showtime in place of Kareem for 10 years would win more than 5 titles? That is the proper context. Honestly I think there is no way.

If you're arguing for prime Wilt + prime Magic might as well argue prime Kareem + prime Magic because that never happened either.

At it's PEAK, the NBA averaged 65 rpg. By the mid-60's it was well below 60.
And again, using TS%'s, Chamberlain had SEASONS of 24-25%, and post-season series of 28%. Hell, in Wilt's last post-season, he averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. He had a 21.7 TRB% (again, his last post-season, and averaging 47 mpg in his 17 games.) KAJ's BEST post-season TRB% was at 21.6 (and he was never again close to that), playing 43 mpg in only 11 games.)

KAJ also had MANY seasons of less than 10 rpg, and was often not only outrebounded by opposing centers, but by teammates, including GUARDS.

As for the Magic-Worthy vs. West-Baylor argument...Magic and Worthy played a combined 16 post-seasons with KAJ, and were generally brilliant in nearly ALL of them. West and Baylor played a combined SIX post-seasons with Wilt, and West was only exceptional in TWO (and of course, he choked in game seven of one of them), while Baylor was just a shell who contributed virtually nothing in one of his two, and very little in the other.

And then, if you go beyond two top teammates, players like Scott or Nixon, and Green and Thompson, as well as Cooper, contributed much more than the rest of Wilt's rosters.

Had Wilt played with the Lakers in the 80's, it would have been a question of say, 7+ titles, perhaps all of them.

[LAZERUSS]

Regarding KAJ's "perceived" edge in longevity, the reality was, we never saw what a 40 year old Wilt would have been capable of.

What we do KNOW is that Chamberlain, in his LAST season, came in 4th in the MVP voting, led his team to a 60-22 record and a trip to the Finals, easily led the league in rebounding (and then annihilated his closest competitor in the WCF's), was voted First Team All-Defense (for the second straight season), averaged 5.4 bpg, which would be more than anyone else in the history of the game not named Eaton (and he only beat that once), dramatically lowered the offense and efficiency's of his opposing centers (including a PRIME Kareem), and set a FG% mark of .727 that likely will never be approached.

And in the post-season, Chamberlain averaged 22.5 rpg, in his 17 post-season games (and playing 47.1 mpg in them), in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. The next best post-season since? KAJ's 17.3 rpg in his 11 post-season games in '77. No one has even come remotely close since.

And, in his very LAST game of his career, and against HOFer Willis Reed, Chamberlain scored 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, and grabbed 21 rebounds.

Furthermore, there are numerous detailed accounts of a post-NBA Chamberlain dominating NBA players in summer league play, including a first-hand account by Larry Brown, in which he witnessed a mid-40's Wilt take over a summer league game in which a prime Magic Johnson was playing in. Hell, Wilt even had LEGITIMATE offers to play in the NBA at age... 50!

[dankok8]

At it's PEAK, the NBA averaged 65 rpg. By the mid-60's it was well below 60.
And again, using TS%'s, Chamberlain had SEASONS of 24-25%, and post-season series of 28%. Hell, in Wilt's last post-season, he averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. He had a 21.7 TRB% (again, his last post-season, and averaging 47 mpg in his 17 games.) KAJ's BEST post-season TRB% was at 21.6 (and he was never again close to that), playing 43 mpg in only 11 games.)

KAJ also had MANY seasons of less than 10 rpg, and was often not only outrebounded by opposing centers, but by teammates, including GUARDS.

As for the Magic-Worthy vs. West-Baylor argument...Magic and Worthy played a combined 16 post-seasons with KAJ, and were generally brilliant in nearly ALL of them. West and Baylor played a combined SIX post-seasons with Wilt, and West was only exceptional in TWO (and of course, he choked in game seven of one of them), while Baylor was just a shell who contributed virtually nothing in one of his two, and very little in the other.

And then, if you go beyond two top teammates, players like Scott or Nixon, and Green and Thompson, as well as Cooper, contributed much more than the rest of Wilt's rosters.

Had Wilt played with the Lakers in the 80's, it would have been a question of say, 7+ titles, perhaps all of them.

Again the "Kareem had Magic" argument is bogus. Kareem was 33 years old in the first postseason he played with Magic and he won 5 titles in the next 10 years. Would Wilt from age 33 to age 42 win more than 5 titles with Showtime? Based on what we know, no way... 1980-1983 Kareem was a much better player than 1970-1973 Wilt. And given Kareem's longevity there is no reason to believe the trend of Kareem > Wilt wouldn't continue into subsequent years.

And we're assuming Wilt had the motivation to continue past 14 seasons or that his body could take the toll. Chamberlain had accumulated so many chronic injuries as well by the time of his retirement.

Prime Wilt would win a ton of titles with Magic. But so would prime Kareem.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Laz bringing out them alts

Kareem and honestly it's not a slam dunk but I don't have to think twice.

There is more to the game than raw talent and statistical production. First of all the extremely high pace, his coaches' strategy, and minutes played (yes I give Wilt a lot of credit for his stamina!) gave Wilt an indescribable edge in putting up numbers. Rebounding in particular cannot be compared because an average team in Wilt's prime was grabbing 70-75 rebounds while an average team in Kareem's prime was grabbing 50-55. It's a world of difference. Wilt's 50 ppg season is INSANE but so is the 40+ shot attempts a game. No other player came within a mile of taking that many shots.

The game of basketball is defined by more than raw stats. Kareem's intangibles were on a much much higher level than Wilt's. Kareem could make his free throws while Wilt was intentionally fouled late in games and rarely received the ball. Kareem was a far superior player in the last few minutes of a close game firstly because of free throw shooting but also because of his skyhook which is the greatest shot every unleashed on the NBA. Wilt relied on the fadeaway which was a lower % shot that took him away from rebounding position. Kareem from day one wanted to win and nothing else. Wilt wanted to chase girls, party, clash with his coaches, etc etc. Kareem was aloof and not a vocal leader as much as he probably should have been but he was a leader. Wilt never really was. Wilt would play play majestically in 1967 involving his teammates very well after years of ball-hogging and then he'd get obsessed with winning an assist title the following season. After winning a title in 1972 he got obsessed with setting a record in FG% and decided not to shoot the ball for games at a time.

Wilt was a greater talent but Kareem was the greater player.

Great arguments, not like some people who simply post "bullshit".

[Iceman#44]

i dont get why you guys still talk about boards: Chamberlain and Jabbar played for 4 years in the same league, and Wilt always averaged more rebounds. 1970: Wilt 18.4, KAJ 14.5; 1971: Wilt 18.6, KAJ 16.0; 1972:Wilt 19.2, KAJ 16.6; 1973: Wilt 18.6, KAJ 16.1

[JellyBean]

This is a tough one. But I would take Kareem over Wilt. I might be bias, since Kareem is my all-time favorite player. But hear me out. To me, Wilt was great. We all know his physical dominance over other players. He was stronger than others, quicker, and could out jump anyone. There are some clips where Wilt is dribbling the ball like a point guard!

Wilt had all of the tools to be great and be a winner, which he did. But the reason why I would pick Kareem over Wilt is because of the mental part of the game. Wilt really could not be stopped unless he wanted to be stopped. That is where I would pick Kareem over Wilt. That mental edge. Kareem had the height and a great shot. But that mindset to keep pushing on an not letting your teammates down, matter greatly to Kareem.

I am not saying that Wilt did not value his teammates and winning. But when you are the strongest, fastest, tallest person on the court and NOBODY could stop you, unless they threw a double or triple team on you, I question How Bad Do You Want It?

[LAZERUSS]

This is a tough one. But I would take Kareem over Wilt. I might be bias, since Kareem is my all-time favorite player. But hear me out. To me, Wilt was great. We all know his physical dominance over other players. He was stronger than others, quicker, and could out jump anyone. There are some clips where Wilt is dribbling the ball like a point guard!

Wilt had all of the tools to be great and be a winner, which he did. But the reason why I would pick Kareem over Wilt is because of the mental part of the game. Wilt really could not be stopped unless he wanted to be stopped. That is where I would pick Kareem over Wilt. That mental edge. Kareem had the height and a great shot. But that mindset to keep pushing on an not letting your teammates down, matter greatly to Kareem.

I am not saying that Wilt did not value his teammates and winning. But when you are the strongest, fastest, tallest person on the court and NOBODY could stop you, unless they threw a double or triple team on you, I question How Bad Do You Want It?

The NBA was the only entity that could stop Wilt. They ROUTINELY enacted "anti-Wilt" Rules. And aside from outlawing the dunking of FTs (which was aimed STRICTLY at Chamberlain), none of the "anti-Wilt" rules really had much affect.

Still, how about this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

In Wilt's era that would have been a blatant offensive charge (among other things...like throwing an elbow.) There was simply NO WAY the NBA would have allowed Chamberlain to play like that.

[swagga]

The NBA was the only entity that could stop Wilt. They ROUTINELY enacted "anti-Wilt" Rules. And aside from outlawing the dunking of FTs (which was aimed STRICTLY at Chamberlain), none of the "anti-Wilt" rules really had much affect.

Still, how about this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

In Wilt's era that would have been a blatant offensive charge (among other things...like throwing an elbow.) There was simply NO WAY the NBA would have allowed Chamberlain to play like that.

too bad wilt didn't have a true post up game... oops

[LAZERUSS]

too bad wilt didn't have a true post up game... oops

Yep...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

weak.

[dankok8]

I just want to comment on rebounding...

Wilt was the better rebounder in his prime but the gap is really overblown. It's pretty close. Wilt did average more RPG a game but let's compare the years they were in the league together against the best...

In their 28 H2H's the tally was an even 14-14.

Against Nate Thurmond in those years Wilt was 5-12-2 and 12-5 in the playoffs.

Against Nate Thurmond in those years Kareem was 11-5-1 and 12-4 in the playoffs.

Against Dave Cowens in those years Wilt was 7-7.

Against Dave Cowens in those years Kareem was 12-1-1.

Against Elvin Hayes in those years Wilt was 5-8-2.

Against Elvin Hayes in those years Kareem was 13-7.

Against Wes Unseld in those years Wilt was 8-5.

Against Wes Unseld in those years Kareem was 9-7 and 2-2 in the playoffs.


Kareem actually had a solid edge over Wilt as far as performances against other great rebounders go.

[LAZERUSS]

I just want to comment on rebounding...

Wilt was the better rebounder but the gap is really overblown. Wilt did average more RPG a game but let's compare the years they were in the league together against the best...

In their 28 H2H's the tally was an even 14-14.

Against Nate Thurmond in those years Wilt was 5-12-2 and 12-5 in the playoffs.

Against Nate Thurmond in those years Kareem was 11-5-1 and 12-4 in the playoffs.

Against Dave Cowens in those years Wilt was 7-7.

Against Dave Cowens in those years Kareem was 12-1-1.

Against Wes Unseld in those years Wilt was 8-5.

Against Wes Unseld in those years Kareem was 9-7 and 2-2 in the playoffs.


Kareem actually had a solid edge over Wilt as far as performances against other great rebounders go.

How old were Kareem and Wilt in that same time frame again?

And how well was a 34-36 year old Kareem rebounding at?

[millwad]

And why don't you for once acknowledge Kareem's shit sandwich in the 70's as far as injuries?

1972: Oscar, Jon McGlocklin, and Wali Jones injured
1974: Lucious Allen injured, missed the playoffs
1977: Kermit Washington missed the playoffs and Lucious Allen injured

Coincidentally these 3 years were Kareem's best shots to win and injuries to his teammates derailed his chances. And in all 3 of those postseasons Kareem's teams lost to the eventual champs with him playing on an extremely high level.

And stop mentioning Oscar as if he was some GOAT. He was a star only in his first season in Milwaukee (when they won an overwhelming title...) and then declined sharply partly due to injury and was never a major factor again.

Magic wasn't a superstar/pantheon level player until 1986-1987. You speak about Kareem and Magic but truth is their primes never even remotely overlapped. You think a 33+ year old Wilt playing for Showtime in place of Kareem for 10 years would win more than 5 titles? That is the proper context. Honestly I think there is no way.

If you're arguing for prime Wilt + prime Magic might as well argue prime Kareem + prime Magic because that never happened either.

Lazeruss, I've called you out for this as well. You are so quick to mention how unlucky Wilt was and how his team's were so bad and busted up. Why don't you ever give a mention about how busted up Kareem's teammates in the early 70's were?

[LAZERUSS]

Lazeruss, I've called you out for this as well. You are so quick to mention how unlucky Wilt was and how his team's were so bad and busted up. Why don't you ever give a mention about how busted up Kareem's teammates in the early 70's were?

Whe don't YOU EVER acknowledge that Wilt played with piss poor rosters, that played even worse in their post-seasons, and were OFTEN injured (his '68 Sixers had SEVEN injured players, including Wilt)...

or that FACT that Wilt's TEAMs were losing to the eventual champions, TEN times in his 13 post-seasons (and TWO rings BTW)...and losing to SEVEN times to the most stacked Dynasty in the history of the NBA, and then TWICE to a two Knick teams that featured FOUR and SIX HOFers, and to a 66-16 Bucks team that was arguably a top-4 team all-time (and he did so, without BOTH West and Baylor...and in a series in which he outplayed a PEAK Kareem)?

How come?

Kareem's teams were not winning titles in seasons in which 44-38, 48-34, 49-33, and 50-32 were winning them. Hell, teams with losing records were making the Finals in that decade.

Not quite the same, is it?

[swagga]

Yep...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

weak.

sorry, my bad, I meant a BIG MAN post game, not these low percentage fade aways/ finger rolls which represent 95% of the videos content. I see no power moves, no drop steps, no hooks, no use of the left hand, no posters, no ball-handling, no heavy contact etc. Not to mention more advanced moves and counter-moves. And that fingerroll would get blocked like nuts today... I won't even discuss that.

Dude din't have a real bigman postgame, the one that really requires strength.
Why would you need superhuman strength to shoot a fadeaway anyway?
Would you like me to post a video of shaq to showcase some premier bigman postgame?

[Iceman#44]

PLAYOFF STATS: Rebounds x game. 1970: Wilt 22.2, KAJ 16.8; 1971: Wilt 20.2, KAJ 17.0; 1972: Wilt 21.0, KAJ 18.2; 1973: Wilt 22.5, KAJ 16.2. What about this? We are talking about playoff. ..Wilt is way better than Jabbar on this