In the Playoffs: Larry Bird vs Wilt Chamberlain

[Bernie Nips]

Never seen Wilt Play....but Bird get's mad overrated on the web.

Did you seriously just post the point scores for Bird's 3 worst Finals games in the year he led Boston to the championship in only his SECOND season as the reason why Bird is overrated?

Wow.

[97 bulls]

Wow, Bird is overrated, but you rank him yourself as top 10. So is 9 overrated, or 8,7,6. Just wondering.

I would just like to add, that circumstances go a long way to forming people ranking of different players. I rank Pippen top 20, but a lot of people say if it wasn't for jordon he wouldn't be in the top 75. You hardly ever hear of people ranking Rick Barry in the top 20, but if you saw him play you would have to at least consider him for the top 20, but he has become a forgotten play much like Walt Fraizer. Times change and people memories fade but a lot of players have moved back in the alltime list because that is just how time treats our sports stars, and every generation thinks modern basketball was inverted during their generation.

I feel he's overrated in that people act like his shit don't stink. I've heard people say he's a great dribbler, he's a great man defender, every time he loss there was an excuse. And id probably be willing to accept certain things more from some posters, if there was some consistency in some of these posters.

Like you said, I really feel every players career should be ranked based on circumstances. Bird had a great 3 year run, but he did lose 7 times as the favorite to lesser teams. His fg% is relatively poor when compared to the players that played during his career. He's clutch, but half of the games he's played in the playoff, he's shot bad. Would Ali be regarded in the same light if he beat foreman, liston, and frasier. But then got his ass kicked by 7 tomatoe cans?

And its no secret I'm a pippen fan. And I can't argue a persons opinion on pippen. If they feel he shouldn't be top 50, fine. But when I hear the reasons? That's when I have to scratch my head.

Such as him not being able to take over games, even though he did, or he wasn't a great scorer even though he was, people knock him for his role in giving up that 17 pt lead to the lakers. And use it to show him as being an un-clutch player. But they have no response for what he did in 92 when he led the bulls back from being down 17 pts in the fourth quarter. I could go on and on

Or look at dwayne wade. He's a great player, but why is he ranked so high? His career accomplishments are nowhere near pippens. Wades claim to fame is his 06 run in the playoffs, and he led the league in scoring once.

Why is dennis rodman ranked so low? 5 championships? Two dpoys the multiple rebounding titles? The all defense teams? Everywhere he went his teams won.

All I'm saying is people need to get away from stats and start looking at results.

[97 bulls]

Maxwell was the Best Scorer (he always was) of the Finals because Bird struggled shooting wise.

But did Maxwelll average 15.3 RPG against Moses? or lets say deliver 7.0 APG?

The Real Finals MVP was Bird. He had the Best All Around Game in the 80s

Wilt was Better than Bird as an Impact Player but Nobody made Others Better more than Bird.

Bird won with McHale as a Sub in 1981 and 1984 in a Time that the NBA had The Best Teams (it was hard to even have a winning% in the 80s) and against Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Nixon, Scott, Green, Thompson right there as competitors

See. This is what I mean by bird being overrated. He didn't battle moses malone. The rockets opposing small forward was robert reid. A decent Small forward. Trying to imply that mchale wasn't very good cuz he was a "sub". Come on

[97 bulls]

Actually, bird was a power forward then. His oppostion on the rockets was billy paultz.

[oolalaa]

I feel he's overrated in that people act like his shit don't stink. I've heard people say he's a great dribbler, he's a great man defender, every time he loss there was an excuse. And id probably be willing to accept certain things more from some posters, if there was some consistency in some of these posters.

Like you said, I really feel every players career should be ranked based on circumstances. Bird had a great 3 year run, but he did lose 7 times as the favorite to lesser teams. His fg% is relatively poor when compared to the players that played during his career. He's clutch, but half of the games he's played in the playoff, he's shot bad. Would Ali be regarded in the same light if he beat foreman, liston, and frasier. But then got his ass kicked by 7 tomatoe cans?

And its no secret I'm a pippen fan. And I can't argue a persons opinion on pippen. If they feel he shouldn't be top 50, fine. But when I hear the reasons? That's when I have to scratch my head.

Such as him not being able to take over games, even though he did, or he wasn't a great scorer even though he was, people knock him for his role in giving up that 17 pt lead to the lakers. And use it to show him as being an un-clutch player. But they have no response for what he did in 92 when he led the bulls back from being down 17 pts in the fourth quarter. I could go on and on

Or look at dwayne wade. He's a great player, but why is he ranked so high? His career accomplishments are nowhere near pippens. Wades claim to fame is his 06 run in the playoffs, and he led the league in scoring once.

Why is dennis rodman ranked so low? 5 championships? Two dpoys the multiple rebounding titles? The all defense teams? Everywhere he went his teams won.

All I'm saying is people need to get away from stats and start looking at results.

I like Pippen a lot. I have him in the 25-30 range.

But he was, repeat it with me, NOT A GREAT SCORER! Nor was he a great playmaker/passer. He was a good/very good scorer and a good/very good playmaker BUT not a great one. This is a fact.

You were never, ever going to win a title with Pippen as your best player. He's similar to someone like Dwight Howard in that sense (who I don't believe is capable of winning a title as the clear cut guy). He could get you close, but he was not good enough offensively. His shooting was inconsistent. He could be erratic when driving to the rim. This is why his efficiency always dropped when facing good defences.

And lastly, I think I've said this to you before, I dont believe he had the ruthlessness required to lead a team to a championship. He striked me as being awfully comfortable playing alongside Jordan and, correct me if i'm wrong, he was glad when Jordan returned in '95.

[KevinNYC]

See. This is what I mean by bird being overrated. He didn't battle moses malone. The rockets opposing small forward was robert reid. A decent Small forward. Trying to imply that mchale wasn't very good cuz he was a "sub". Come on

You never saw Moses play did you? He didn't really care about what position you were if you were between him and the ball. He went for EVERY rebound.

Also McHale was a rookie in 80-81 and played 14 minutes a game in the 1981
Finals. He was not the Celtics 6th man yet. He was 9th in terms of minutes played and had 5 points and 3 rebounds a game. McHale was not Hall of Famer Kevin McHale yet. He was not much of an impact player in 1981. By 1984 he was the 6th man and played 30 minutes a game and had 13p and 6r in the 84 Finals.

Chris Ford, who is all but forgotten as a player now, was a bigger contributor than McHale in 1981.

[TheFrozenOne]

Did you seriously just post the point scores for Bird's 3 worst Finals games in the year he led Boston to the championship in only his SECOND season as the reason why Bird is overrated?

Wow.

Bird was already 24 years old.

[97 bulls]

You never saw Moses play did you? He didn't really care about what position you were if you were between him and the ball. He went for EVERY rebound.

Also McHale was a rookie in 80-81 and played 14 minutes a game in the 1981
Finals. He was not the Celtics 6th man yet. He was 9th in terms of minutes played and had 5 points and 3 rebounds a game. McHale was not Hall of Famer Kevin McHale yet. He was not much of an impact player in 1981. By 1984 he was the 6th man and played 30 minutes a game and had 13p and 6r in the 84 Finals.

Chris Ford, who is all but forgotten as a player now, was a bigger contributor than McHale in 1981.

Ok but what fuuny about your post is that we always hear about how great the 80s competiton was. Which is it?

[Micku]

Both are somewhat similar.

Bird's Celtics didn't have the talent like the Lakers and 76ers early on, and he won a championship. Later when he had more talent on his team, especially when Kevin Mchale became a star, they had better playoff success, but the only team they lost to would be the Lakers. Even when they beat the Lakers in 1984, it was more that the Lakers shot themselves on the foot more than the Celtics actually beating them by being the better team. But a win is a win, and the Celtics fought hard, with Bird hitting a gamewinner in the series.

This is what's similar to Wilt and Bird. Bird only really beat Magic one time. Wilt only beat Russell one time. From what I understood, Wilt didn't have the talent that Russell did to work with until later, similar to Bird vs Magic early in their career. Wilt and Bird couldn't get over the hump with their rivals for the most part.

But I would take Bird over Wilt in the playoffs because he did had more playoff success and more teamplayer than anything. And he took a team that was 29 wins to 61 wins, and was a contender as long as he was there. And he battled the 76ers, Bucks, and Lakers. And I think Wilt had a season or two where he wasn't in the playoffs? While I think Bird was always in the playoffs for his entire career, and perform good in most. His regular season stats don't match up to his playoff stats always tho. But he did a lot of things for the team besides scoring.

But I don't blame anybody for taking Wilt. Despite his failures to beat the Celtics, he always came close from what I saw. I wouldn't know too much because I hardly really watch the games.

[Round Mound]

The big difference is

Bird was the MAN in those Celtics Championships

While...Pippen was the 2nd Option All of his Career but 93-94 (he did great but was not the level of 1st Option as Bird or MJ)

McHale was a Sub in 81 and 84 and Maxwell was the PF.

Bird averaged More RPG because he Had that Skill in his Game when he was young and healthy. He could play some PF but his game Blossomed More So Freely as HE Wanted to Play.

Maxwell was always a Very Good Scorer but not in the Level of McHale was when he himself blossomed.

Bird arrived in the Celtics and they turned into a 60 plus team.

Parish? Good Defender and Rebounder but Offensively if it wasn`t for Bird and later on McHale he would not have shinned that much.

Bird was the Man in his Team while Kareem was the Man in the Lakers till 1985

Bird > Magic 79-86
Magic > Bird 87-92...mainly cause Bird began getting injured.

Bird`s Defensive Rating was the Highest of Any SF in the 80s. He Lead 2 Play-Offs in Defensive Rating and Ranked Top 10 for like 6 Years. So YES Bird was a Great Defender...mainly guarding PFs and not so much High Scoring SFs.

Bird has one of the Highest Winning% of All Time as The Man

[32Dayz]

Kind of depends on my roster...

If I have a really weak roster I might take 64 Wilt and just feed him all day and see what he can do or I might take Prime Bird and hope he can raise the quality of the entire team with his passing + leadership and hope that with his own individual play will be enough.

If I have a bunch of good shooters but no good play makers I'd take Prime Bird.
If I have a bunch of good scorers and a good or decent play maker I might take 67 Wilt.

Leaning towards Bird but I am not decided.

[97 bulls]

I like Pippen a lot. I have him in the 25-30 range.

But he was, repeat it with me, NOT A GREAT SCORER! Nor was he a great playmaker/passer. He was a good/very good scorer and a good/very good playmaker BUT not a great one. This is a fact.

You were never, ever going to win a title with Pippen as your best player. He's similar to someone like Dwight Howard in that sense (who I don't believe is capable of winning a title as the clear cut guy). He could get you close, but he was not good enough offensively. His shooting was inconsistent. He could be erratic when driving to the rim. This is why his efficiency always dropped when facing good defences.

And lastly, I think I've said this to you before, I dont believe he had the ruthlessness required to lead a team to a championship. He striked me as being awfully comfortable playing alongside Jordan and, correct me if i'm wrong, he was glad when Jordan returned in '95.

I agree, he wasn't a great scorer. But he was better than he has been given credit for.

And I don't know what your definition of a great playmaker is, but pippen fits the bill. He ran the bulls offense. The bulls were routinely one of the top teams as far as offense. And if you want to talk about assists, remember, pippen played in the triangle. The 7 assists he avg in 92 is the most ever for that offense. When he was with portland, he shared PG duties with damon stoudemire and avg 6 assts. And remember that that was in the slow paced 90s with pippen as a 34 year old. If that were the "mighty 80s", there no doubt pippen would've avg 7-9 assists per season. And that's sharing the ball with jordan.

Lastly, I strongly disagree with your assesment that pippen was "comfortable" with not being the man. Didn't he sit out that play cuz it wasn't drawn up for him?

[Micku]

I feel he's overrated in that people act like his shit don't stink. I've heard people say he's a great dribbler, he's a great man defender, every time he loss there was an excuse. And id probably be willing to accept certain things more from some posters, if there was some consistency in some of these posters.

Like you said, I really feel every players career should be ranked based on circumstances. Bird had a great 3 year run, but he did lose 7 times as the favorite to lesser teams. His fg% is relatively poor when compared to the players that played during his career. He's clutch, but half of the games he's played in the playoff, he's shot bad. Would Ali be regarded in the same light if he beat foreman, liston, and frasier. But then got his ass kicked by 7 tomatoe cans?


All I'm saying is people need to get away from stats and start looking at results.

Well, it depends what you mean by overrated. He was a good post defender, and he was pretty ok dribbler. He was similar to Magic in a way. He was a great rebounder. You're right in your criticism with the FG%. He improved in the regular season, and he had his moments in the playoffs.

I think Bird had 4 or 5 good years in the playoffs. He did took the Celtics to four straight finals. And he only lost to the Lakers 2/3 of them. The Celtics would've beat any other team. But it should sting the Celtics for losing to the Lakers. They shouldn't have lost in 1985 almost like how the Lakers shouldn't have lost in 1984. 1987 was anybody's game, but Magic's game winner screwed that up. Bird hit a clutch shot before Magic hit that game winner. Bird just missed on last one.

The Celtics didn't have the epic stacked talent until the 1985. That's when Mchale became more of a star, and Danny Ainge got better. But the Lakers in the early 80s. And unlike Magic, Bird was the man from the beginning.

[32Dayz]

Bird was really good from 84-87.

27, 10, 7 on 58-60+% TS.... sick.

not even accounting for his intangibles and leadership.

[DMAVS41]

Bird is one of my favorite players ever. Probably my third favorite player ever. But if he played today.....and he lost 7 times with HCA and played the way he did in the Finals at times.....he would get hammered in places like this.

Absolutely hammered.