Observations of Lebron's game

[90sgoat]

If you were to look at it objectively, the story of Lebron and Wade is the story of MJ and Pippen. As soon as MJ/Wade got their jack of all trades teammate, they promptly went on to win championships. Then their jack of all trades wanted to be THE guy again and they went to different stacked teams BUT couldn't win. Pippen played first with Hakeem and Barkley and couldn't win - in a season where Barkley opened the first game grabbing 33 rebounds and willingly relegating himself to be a garbage man. Then he went to Portland and couldn't win there either, even though he one of the most stacked teams of all time, one of the goat centers in Sarbonis, a great PF in Sheed, a great big guard in Steve Smit and so on.

He couldn't win because Pippen is a glue guy, a jack of all trades, just like Lebron.

[ralph_i_el]

If you were to look at it objectively, the story of Lebron and Wade is the story of MJ and Pippen. As soon as MJ/Wade got their jack of all trades teammate, they promptly went on to win championships. Then their jack of all trades wanted to be THE guy again and they went to different stacked teams BUT couldn't win. Pippen played first with Hakeem and Barkley and couldn't win - in a season where Barkley opened the first game grabbing 33 rebounds and willingly relegating himself to be a garbage man. Then he went to Portland and couldn't win there either, even though he one of the most stacked teams of all time, one of the goat centers in Sarbonis, a great PF in Sheed, a great big guard in Steve Smit and so on.

He couldn't win because Pippen is a glue guy, a jack of all trades, just like Lebron.

LeBron has been one year away from Wade and he made it to the finals. MJ on steroids after finally getting to **** Madonna wasn't going to beat the Warriors with that Cavs squad minus Kyrie and Love.

[3ball]

MJ on steroids after finally getting to **** Madonna wasn't going to beat the Warriors with that Cavs squad minus Kyrie and Love.

Horseshit.. Lebron wins if he shoots sufficiently better than 39% - this is a fact... But unfortunately, it's ALSO a fact that he isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume.

The NBA's player-tracking stats show that Lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor efficiency at high volume dooms his chances of winning a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting high volume - he simply isn't capable of winning a ring while high shooting volume.

Lebron's poor efficiency at high volumes mean he doesn't require a double-team.. He hasn't been double-teamed for the last 3 Finals, most obviously in 2015.. This is no surprise - the best option for ANY defense is to allow low percentage shots over and over.. This specific dynamic where Lebron UN-complicates the opponent's defensive strategy by not commanding a double-team, puts him outside of the top 15 all-time.. His inability to command a double team is a horrible indictment on his game compared to his peers.

[ralph_i_el]

Horseshit.. Lebron wins if he shoots sufficiently better than 39% - this is a fact... But unfortunately, it's ALSO a fact that he isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume.

The NBA's player-tracking stats show that Lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor efficiency at high volume dooms his chances of winning a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting high volume - he simply isn't capable of winning a ring while high shooting volume.

Lebron's poor efficiency at high volumes mean he doesn't require a double-team.. He hasn't been double-teamed for the last 3 Finals, most obviously in 2015.. This is no surprise - the best option for ANY defense is to allow low percentage shots over and over.. This specific dynamic where Lebron UN-complicates the opponent's defensive strategy by not commanding a double-team, puts him outside of the top 15 all-time.. His inability to command a double team is a horrible indictment on his game compared to his peers.

You're right on the point of his midrange game not drawing double teams. He still draws tons of help in the paint though but when he has shooters around him that doesn't matter because he has the space to run a highly effective offense and get to the rim all the time.....

BUT he was playing against the best D in the league in the finals....without his two best playmaking AND shooting teammates.

And btw, LeBron's jumpshooting numbers were near a career worst this past playoffs. He shot a pretty high % on J's the last few years, and his regular season numbers are in-line with his past playoff numbers.

I'm inclined to chock this past playoffs up as a fluke+1st year with this squad+injured shooters in the playoffs.

As a team the Cavs shot 29% from 3 in the finals. That's not the case if they have Love and Irving. Which means Bron has space to operate....which means it's an actual series and not the ass-stomping we saw.

btw, I predicted a Warriors sweep before the finals. somebody can google that if they care.

[ralph_i_el]

The NBA's player-tracking stats show that Lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor efficiency at high volume dooms his chances of winning a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting high volume - he simply isn't capable of winning a ring while high shooting volume.

hmmmm, well the stats also say that for the last few years LeBron shot well (way better than this last year)

AND (here's the kicker)

For LeBron's first championship he had a 33.4% usage rate in the playoffs....MJ had a 32.7% usage for his first ring If you don't know, 33.4% is damn high usage. High enough to lead the league some years. Not as high as MJ or Kobe....but who shoots as much as those guys?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lebron's style of play dooms his team's chances against the better playoff teams, resulting in "empty stats"

Lebron's style of play (pg ball-dominance and low-assisted rate from SF position, with poor mid-range or isolation skills) doesn't just prevent him from being effective without drive-and-kick or shooting well enough at high volumes to command double teams - it also hurts the brand of basketball his team is capable of.. His teams become locked into a style where Lebron dominates the ball and the offensive decision-making, which hurts chemistry.

Just look at the heat.. Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and brand of basketball was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency (2015 Finals).
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This. Everything here is actually extremely accurate as a knock on LeBron's style of play. Some of the other things 3ball says can be melodramatic or exaggerated against LeBron. But this part of his post I absolutely believe, and is in my opinion, spot on analysis.

The lack of mid range game, lack of reliable post game, inconsistent jumper, less slithery in the half court, more plodding and with inferior ISO scoring skills compared to say MJ or Kobe or Durant.

Or even the likes of Wade, McGrady, Iverson, Kyrie and Melo.

While also needing to dominate the ball, rendering other great offensive talents moot within the half court set. Unlike say Magic, or Bird who could also play off the ball, or had post skills, and more quick reads / passes. Without the need of excessive pick and roll plays.

LeBron's style doesn't add up to very dynamic team rapport, and offense. And against better skilled competition or defenses, he becomes exposed.

That's why the phrase jack of all trades, master of none ... aka LeBron the Super Pippen, ring very true.

He did face one defender on ISOs exclusively, and put up 36 ppg on a putrid 39% from the field with just a singular defender on him for the entire series. He should've been well over 40 a game.

[Smoke117]

This. Everything here is actually extremely accurate as a knock on LeBron's style of play. Some of the other things 3ball says can be melodramatic or exaggerated against LeBron. But this part of his post I absolutely believe, and is in my opinion, spot on analysis.

The lack of mid range game, lack of reliable post game, less slithery in the half court, with inferior ISO scoring skills compared to say MJ or Kobe or Durant.

Or even the likes of Wade, McGrady, Iverson, and Melo.

While also needing to dominate the ball, rendering other great offensive talents moot within the half court set. Unlike say Magic, or Bird who could also play off the ball, or had post skills, and more quick reads / passes. Without the need of excessive pick and roll plays.

LeBron's style doesn't add up to very dynamic team rapport, and offense. And against better skilled competition or defenses, he becomes exposed.

That's why the phrase jack of all trades, master of none ... aka LeBron the Super Pippen, ring very true.

He did face one defender on ISOs exclusively, and put up 36 ppg on a putrid 39% from the field with just a singular defender on him for the entire series. He should've been well over 40 a game.

You know you're a jordan stan little tawt when you start agreeing with 3ball. You know what is the saddest part about you bro? You are actually a decent poster when Jordan isn't in the picture. (though you barely post when it isn't about your lover) I legit wouldn't be surprised if 3ball is your alt and your out to release all your bullshit on us. Yes...you are a bitch and a clown.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You know you're a jordan stan little tawt when you start agreeing with 3ball. You know what is the saddest part about you bro? You are actually a decent poster when Jordan isn't in the picture. (though you barely post when it isn't about your lover) I legit wouldn't be surprised if 3ball is your alt and your out to release all your bullshit on us. Yes...you are a bitch and a clown.

Um, ok. And none of my post had to do with Jordan. Just cosigning aspects to LeBron's game that while are plus signs on the stat sheer, can also stagnate his teams as well. But, whatever you say for sure. Take your meds Smoke117. You're going all Rage Mode again.

[Smoke117]

Um, ok. And none of my post had to do with Jordan. Just cosigning aspects to LeBron's game that while are plus signs on the stat sheer, can also stagnate his teams as well. But, whatever you say for sure. Take your meds Smoke117. You're going all Rage Mode again.

I'm absolutely upset, raging, and all that. You got me... *woo* I'm wheezing this is so hilariously sad.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm absolutely upset, raging, and all that. You got me... *woo* I'm wheezing this is so hilariously sad.

Um, ok.

[plowking]

Bron had a 3 year head start while playing in the worst conference in NBA History (post merger). Kobe was 3/3 in the finals by age 23, 5/7 by 30. Means jack shit.

Exactly, since we have to penalize Bron for being better at a younger age. Can't do that. And we all know that players play exactly the same amount of games, and time in their career, hence years in the league is the best way to gauge things.

Once again, I agree with you Dadda. Bron was playing in the worst conference in NBA history. Yet MJ was toughing it out his first few years, trying to make it to the playoffs in an conference which only allowed the elite to play. That is right, you guessed it... A 30 win team.

[plowking]

LeBron's style doesn't add up to very dynamic team rapport, and offense. And against better skilled competition or defenses, he becomes exposed.

LeBron's game that while are plus signs on the stat sheer, can also stagnate his teams as well

Of course it does... somehow all these misconceptions hold for Bron, but when we look at the evidence, they all say otherwise.

Bron has regularly been involved in teams that average the most passes in a game, in the league all up for the season. Heat being a great example. Many other times, just shy of that. Even in 13-14 where his team got buried, they were 2nd that year to the Spurs, who they lost to.

Yeah, Lebron really stagnates the offense, right? Oh, and his usage rate must be high right? Sure, he is a great player. But MJ still has a higher usage rate... But once again... Bron... stagnating that offense.

[knicksman]

I agree that LeBron's jack-of-all-trades nature makes it harder for him to fit in with some teammates due to skill overlap. I agree that sometimes his style of play isn't the optimal strategy for team basketball.

HOWEVER.....he's been a one man army of destruction for over a decade now. He has weaknesses....but he has so many strengths too. Karl Malone isn't going to 5 straight finals with essential 3 entirely different lineups.

We all know how good Wade and Bosh were, but next to LeBron, Wade isn't going to get to handle the ball as much, and Bosh isn't going to get the elbow touches he would get otherwise....because why would you when you have LeBron who's just pure better?

He's a top-10 player sorry. MJ's the GOAT, not many people are going to debate you on that one man. I'm not doing this for the trolling, I'm doing it for the truth.

But jordan is a better pg than pippen yet it was pippen who led in apg. Thats what really separates the winners from losers. Sacrificing stats for rings. Its the reason why duncan,russell, curry are winners. As jordan have said,"the day i let go of stats is the day i started wining."

[CTbasketball92]

Here's the deal.

We all appreciate 3Ball taking the time to meticously back up his claims about Lebron and MJ because we know a lot bball fans are fat basement dwellers who never played the game.

If you know and play basketball the eye test has been enough for years to tell that Lebron simply isn't that skilled a basketball player.

When you get to my age where you start to wear khaki pants and drink alone in the evening, you don't get phased by hype anymore.

Watching Lebron is has been clear for years that:

1) Lebron lacks a first step, this means he needs a pick to penetrate, which makes him predictablen and requires a power forward who can shoot the long jumper (Bosh, Love). Most guys who can shoot long jumpers are afraid of the post, so Lebron led teams will never have a bruising low post power forward.

2) Lebron doesn't pass into the post, which means you never have to guard the entry pass, which could have given him more room for that first step.

3) Lebron has poor body control and flexibility. He gets around this by committing offensive fouls on almost every drive, but it also means he actually finishes quite poorly around the basket if a big man is there (Hibbert, Duncan).

4) Lebron has no off ball game, which means you can generally guard him straight up with one guy during long stretches (Igoudala, Kawhi). Had he been able to move off ball, he could have gotten a lot of mismatches going on, but he can't.

5) Lebron bricks every mid range. Lebron has no jumper.

In fact Lebron needs an overwhelming amount of ref help in the form of bailout calls on his below the basket layups and his stiff arm drives.

I've said it again and again, Lebron is not elite tier, he doesn't have the elite skill of almost all top 10 players. He has no skyhook, no unblockable fade away, no finger roll, no ability to hit contested jumper, no ankle breaking crossover.

That means Lebron simply cannot be trusted to 'go get a basket'. Teaming up with Wade was all about that. Wade can get you a basket because he is skilled. Lebron is like Pippen, who needs Kukoc to get you a basket.

It's no shame, he is still a great player, just not a top 10 player, he is in the same tier as the Karl Malones, Moses Malones and Charles Barkleys. So close, but not good enough.

This is silly, everyone has LeBron's inefficient 2015 postseason on their minds so much that they overlook his years of incredible playoff performances. You would think none of you ever saw him score 25 straight to defeat a pistons team that locked Kobe up in '04, or that they the fact that he averages 32 ppg 10 rebounds and 7 assists on 46% shooting in elimination games.

Who was getting LeBron buckets when he singlehandedly beat the celtics with 45 points 15 rebounds and 5 assists on like 70% shooting? They had ZERO momentum and shouldve closed it out, but LeBron is LeBron, so he went off.

What about those Cleveland teams that had the league's best record, even though their team wasn't nearly as well rounded as lets say, the spurs or the warriors, and their second best player was Mo Williams?

LeBron is past his prime, and i honestly began to think that Harden or westbrook are close (not curry), but the finals opened my eyes. LeBron doesn't have elite one-on-one skills, but his size, athleticism and ability to essentially play pg while also guarding bigs gives him a dimension that Durant, Harden and Westbrook ... AND MJ cannot match.

What James Harden did against the warriors in that one game was incredible, but we saw how he crumbled with the 13 t/os. LeBron had to handle the ball just as much, if not more, and his turnovers still decreased. He shot 40%, but he averaged like 37 11 and 9 assists against the league's best defense while still being responsible for all of the cavs playmaking and won two games. This is LeBron PAST his prime, and yet, I just don't know of any other player in the league that could go to the worst team and guarantee 55 wins after a season.

LeBron has elite passing skills and elite bball iq and GOAT athleticism and build. His lack of one on one ability might be annoying and aesthetically unappealling, and he might stunt certain players growth, but when you're that damn dominant and go to five straight finals (east, but still), how can anyone complain about the results? Makes no sense.

Bird played on all hall of fame teams ... he is NOT doing what LeBron did this year, neither is Magic, neither is almost anyone except MAYBE MJ, because on a roster that depleted, you need someone who has the size and ability to do everything, and LeBron is the only player that can do it.

[DonDadda59]

Exactly, since we have to penalize Bron for being better at a younger age.

Jordan ages 21-25: 33/6/6/3/1 (51% FG)
LeBron ages 21-25: 29/7/7/2/1 (49% FG)

Once again, I agree with you Dadda. Bron was playing in the worst conference in NBA history.

Check the $tats... 00s Eastern Conference, especially '00-'04 & post 2010 = worst conference in post merger NBA History.

Yet MJ was toughing it out his first few years, trying to make it to the playoffs in an conference which only allowed the elite to play. That is right, you guessed it... A 30 win team.

Eastern Conference Win% '86-'87: 55-57%
Eastern Conference Win% '07: 41%
Eastern Conference Win% '14: 36.8%