Wow, MJ is the goat

[3ball]

Miami never declined from 3-peat champs to 2nd round (neither did Boston).

The Heat's weak record in 2014 gets them a low seed in the West, where the Spurs destroy them in 1st or 2nd round instead of Finals.. The Heat DID lose far worse than any other West opponent vs. the Spurs.

So the 2014 Heat were equal to a 1st round Western Conference team with Lebron in 2014, that declined to lottery without Lebron (and only because of injuries).

I meant to add that ultimately, MJ had the GOAT impact on decent teams (3-peat to 2nd Round, and then verifying this impact by coming back and returning the Bulls to 3-peat glory).

And he had the GOAT impact on bad teams - in 1989 and 1990, he took a team that would've been lottery without him, to 6 and 7 games with the champs.. Lebron did something similar this year, except his stats were much worse.

Jordan's [COLOR="navy"]34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51.0%[/COLOR] in the 1989 playoffs was better than Lebron's [COLOR="indigo"]30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7%[/COLOR] in the 2015 playoffs - MJ has a 5 point scoring edge and a 10 point efficiency edge, while Lebron has a 4 rebound edge and 1.6 assist edge.. MJ's edges are more valuable for a team's #1 option.

In 1990, MJ averaged [COLOR="navy"]36.8/7.2/6.8 on 51.4%[/COLOR] in the playoffs, and took the champion Pistons to 7 games this time.. Again, those stats are better than Lebron's in these playoffs, unless you're disregarding the 10 point efficiency gap and 7 point scoring gap.
.

[superteamtheory]

Of course, MJ verified his 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, by coming back and returning the Bulls to 3-peat glory again..

so i guess this just magically never happened then...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...-vs-magic.html

...

of course Jordan as the GOAT has huge impact on his teams (and the drop off from winning it all to 2nd round is big even if Bulls almost made conference finals / eventually finals that year by losing 1 seventh game) ...

it's also just, common sense now, what matchups you run into -- Bulls finally met a team with talent level comparable to theirs and... they lost.
in round 2.
in less games than the year before without MJ..
(the vengeful sweep of Shaq & Penny in 96 is impressive but they are up a Rodman while Magic are down a Horace Grant..)

OTOH, it proves nothing about Jordan exactly, it's just the way it went down..

I mean, unless you're trying to build this great big mythology about Jordan taking Bulls from a 2nd rounder to threepeat again, then it proves you have a selective POV because you're a biased, agenda driven Jordan jock-rider..

that same sort of skewed logic allows statements like: Jordan lead a would-be lottery team to a threepeat ... because 1990 didn't happen either.. because MJ never lost a Finals-type series he had a shot at winning..

Miami never declined from 3-peat champs to 2nd round (neither did Boston).

The Heat's weak record in 2014 gets them a low seed in the West, where the Spurs destroy them in 1st or 2nd round instead of Finals.. The Heat DID lose far worse than any other West opponent vs. the Spurs.

So the 2014 Heat were equal to a 1st round Western Conference team with Lebron in 2014, that declined to lottery without Lebron (and only because of injuries).

thing is, that's the team Bron is working with in the 2014 Finals, a Wade whose body craps out after 3 games but he keeps playing because, well, what other option do they have..

or does anybody here really believe Wade was 100% games 4&5? (or even the whole series..) or even if he was and that's just what Wade is at this point of his career... ...how again does this reflect badly on Bron in terms of not being able to win in 2014?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...014-nba-finals

ps. no Heat didn't go from threepeaters to 2nd round... I mean, they did go from being a 4x Eastern conference champ to a 1st round exit (possibly at Bron's hands, how sweet it is) pre-Dragic trade (which was also pre-Bosh clot).. I kno, I kno, Wade is in & out of lineup too but the general point is, these Heat weren't that hot without Bron after being a contender or winner (50-50) the last 4 years...

[3ball]

you're trying to build this great big mythology about Jordan taking Bulls from a 2nd rounder to threepeat again

That's the historical record - that's EXACTLY what happened.

MJ led the Bulls to 3-peat... Then he retired and they dropped to 2nd Round.

He returned, and they returned to 3-peat glory.

But okay bud, it was just coincidence.. jfc

[Sakkreth]

what puts Iguodala above curry?

Why u put curry in this thread ? we arguing fmvps here.

[pauk]

11 titles in 13 years

also was the fmvp (its even named/created because of/after him) in all those championship runs.... thats more times than MJ, Lebron & Kobe combined...

[ClipperRevival]

11 titles in 13 years

also was the fmvp (its even named/created because of/after him) in all those championship runs.... thats more times than MJ, Lebron & Kobe combined...

And couldn't dominate on one end.

Sorry, but for my criteria for GOAT big man, I need him to dominate on both ends. I would take a handful of C before I take Russell if I were starting a team. Russell would have to be matched up carefully with another 4 or 5 (depending on what position he plays) to maximize his talents.

[The_Pharcyde]

11 titles in 13 years

also was the fmvp (its even named/created because of/after him) in all those championship runs.... thats more times than MJ, Lebron & Kobe combined...

bill has a case measured against any player

but i think even the biggest russell fan can admit that it was a different league back then and while greatness transcends time and the great ones can play in any era... it was.... easier

i hate the term easier but with the sample size being exponentially smaller in regards to talent globally and the money from all the billionaires not poured in yet to refine the league...it enabled the league to have less parody

the racial issues play a role in all of this also

but none the less he did accomplish what he accomplished, but context has to be served

[superteamtheory]

That's the historical record - that's EXACTLY what happened.
[/I]

what exactly happened is he came back and they lost in the 2nd round just like year before..

what exactly happened before first threepeat is there is a year between your 89 "would be" lottery team and the...

ahh why am I even arguing with a guy who can't even handle the concept of matching player years by their post-highschool experience ...

and who will routinely try to put words in your mouth ("it's all coincidence"? what i didn't say that.. i may have said it's all rosters/matchups..)

[triangleoffense]

lol at people arguing for Russell as GOAT.. 99% of them are salty Celtic fans.

[3ball]

what exactly happened is he came back and they lost in the 2nd round just like year before..

Only fools think the chemistry was the same after 17 games.. More importantly, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER was new except Pippen.

But in his first full season, MJ restored the Bulls to 3-peat, despite having a completely different team.

You're forgetting that MJ was the biggest reason for every championship and both 3-peats, no matter how you slice it.. It's retarded to dispute such common knowledge.

what exactly happened before first threepeat is there is a year between your 89 "would be" lottery team and the...

Exactly - that's the goat impact - in 1989, MJ took a team that would've been lottery without him, to ECF and one season away from starting a 3-peat.

That's the goat impact - lottery team to ECF and 1 season away from starting 3-peat.. That's historical fact.

Don't feel too bad - Lebron also took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs, like MJ did in 1989.. But Lebron only averaged [COLOR="Purple"]30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7%[/COLOR] in the 2015 playoffs compared to MJ's [COLOR="Navy"]34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51%[/COLOR] in 1989.

MJ has 5-point scoring edge and 11-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 2 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

[nba_55]

The luxury of having one of the most stacked teams of all-time.

[3ball]

The luxury of having one of the most stacked teams of all-time.

More than Bird's Celtics?.. Obviously not.


More than Magic's Lakers?..

More than Kobe's Shaq?...

More than Dr. J's Fo-Fo-Fo...

More than a 10-time all-star as your 3rd option (Bosh) AND 25 ppg Wade?..

More than Ginobili, Parker, Kawhi?.. Now you've gone and lost it

More than KG's "original" big 3?...




MJ's cast never came close to these, which is why he needed better stats than all these guys..

[nba_55]

More than Bird's Celtics?.. Obviously not.


More than Magic's Lakers?..

More than Kobe's Shaq?...

More than Dr. J's Fo-Fo-Fo...

More than a 10-time all-star as your 3rd option (Bosh) AND 25 ppg Wade?..

More than Ginobili, Parker, Kawhi?.. Now you've gone and lost it

More than KG's "original" big 3?...




MJ's cast never came close to these, which is why he needed better stats than all these guys..

The answer to almost all of those questions is yes if you are intelligent enough to understand the concept of TEAM.

[triangleoffense]

The answer to almost all of those questions is yes if you are intelligent enough to understand the concept of TEAM.

You do realize that would then make him the best team player of all time if your going off overall record.. 72-10 season best all time by a mile and all the individual accolades to boot carrying the team regular season AND stepping up with better stats in the playoffs and finals. Sorry no NBA player in the history of the league will ever come close.. Lebron had his shot realistically in the 2005 finals and even arguably in 2011 but below both chances. He could have at least have made 2005 more competitive but he got swept and outplayed by Parker in the finals.

[funnystuff]

More than Bird's Celtics?.. Obviously not.


More than Magic's Lakers?..

More than Kobe's Shaq?...

More than Dr. J's Fo-Fo-Fo...

More than a 10-time all-star as your 3rd option (Bosh) AND 25 ppg Wade?..

More than Ginobili, Parker, Kawhi?.. Now you've gone and lost it

More than KG's "original" big 3?...




MJ's cast never came close to these, which is why he needed better stats than all these guys..

When MJ left, the Bulls were just as elite and didn't fall off whatsoever. Shut the f*** up already.