All Time Draft Round 1 Western Conference 2vs15 and 7vs10

[KobesFinger]

I'll go Kurple and Raider.

In the Kurple match-up I'm not sure LeBron can play in the Pop system. He wasn't able to get it done sharing ball handling duties with Wade, and reduced Bosh to a jumpshooter because he needed the space to drive. Dwight Howard has no mid-range game, and Gasol complained several times when MDA favoured Dwight down low over himself. And Kareem >> Dwight.

In the Raider match-up, I think the athletcism of his front court will wear down Wally's team too much. Wally has to immediately put one of his best defenders in Yao on the bench for long periods of time because he isn't mobile enough to stay with D-Rob. I also think his bench back-court would get shredded. Sorry Wally, gotta give it to Raider.

[raiderfan19]

I really thought I had a different year for Mookie. My fault.

As for your shooting lets also point out that laimbeer isn't exactly dirk or love. He made 30 3s on roughly 35% 3 pt shooting that year. Like I said you have nooooo spacing

To put your spacing in context, your starting lineup is 191/574 which comes out to 33%. And 43/165 in the playoffs for a 26%

[wally_world]

I hope voters look more into the intangibles, rather than just physical traits and elements of our teams. If this were a numbers game or a game about being taller/bigger/stronger, I wouldn't have picked guys like Isiah Thomas or Bill Russell - players who win with their hearts and minds. Won't be debating about the matchup anymore, I'll let the voters decide.

[raiderfan19]

I officially vote for myself and kurple obviously

[barkleynash]

last day of voting peeps before we go to the next round

[Gotterdammerung]

A little contradicting because my role for Yao is exactly that - reliable scoring (low post scoring, midrange game). Yet you found that pairing to be an issue, so I really don't know what you're expecting.

There's no contradiction. You are starting two centers, whether it's Yao or Laimbeer with Russell.

My contention is that they're effective versus centers. Russell can control David Robinson easily, largely because Robinson wasn't a strong low post center, but more of a high post threat.

Now, you have Laimbeer trying (emphasis on the "try" part) to guard the quick and svelte Anthony Davis. It'll work if your offense slows down the game (predicated by a superior point guard) and walk the ball up the floor each possession. You'll get in trouble if you try to switch Laimbeer on the ultra-athletic Robinson instead.

If you actually watched Laimbeer play, you'd know that his weakness was that he couldn't block shots or keep up with any quick big that could face up and go, but made up for it by being a cheap shot artist.

You realise a player's "listed position" don't mean anything right? Why is Laimbeer/Yao a bad pairing beside Russell? Because they are listed as Centers? They bring exactly what I want to the table, one stretches the floor so Russell works inside, one to work the high-low with Russell.

Nope. Laimbeer was no modern "stretch four." He was a center who bullied weaker centers, and pulled better ones away from his superior teammates from the low post. You don't have a legitimate low post guy - be it a power forward like Elvin Hayes or Kevin Willis.

Saying you have one in Yao Ming is a non sequitur when you're not even starting him.

If you honestly think Mahorn/Edwards are better low post scorers than Bill Russell then I see no point arguing with you because you simply do not respect Russell.

I didn't say that they were better on the box than Bill Russell, but perhaps English is not your first language.

Bill Russell was effective in the half court with an accurate left hook and scored mostly on put backs and a strange low flying, wrist-snapping shot that was partly a jumper and one handed shot. He averaged 15 ppg in his career, but you gotta understand he was one of the fastest centers ever, and that made the Celtics run a five man fast break. Many of his points came on dunks at the trail end of those breaks.

Now, kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.

[wally_world]

Not gonna debate about the matchup anymore, but to clear up the air

There's no contradiction. You are starting two centers, whether it's Yao or Laimbeer with Russell.

My contention is that they're effective versus centers. Russell can control David Robinson easily, largely because Robinson wasn't a strong low post center, but more of a high post threat.

It is contradicting because you began your case for voting against me saying I should have drafted a legit PF over Yao, then go on to say "The legitimate power forward can score consistently, forcing Raiderfan to adjust his game plan.", and "if I was building around Russell I'd pick more mobile guys that had reliable low post scoring as well as a mid range option to loosen up the interior." which is exactly what Yao does.

In other words, you're just discriminating what they do on the court based on their listed position.

If the problem was defensively, Yao or Laimbeer would have problems keeping up with their more athletic counterparts, then yes, I would've agreed with you. But your rationale for why Laimbeer is a bad fit is because he can't score in the post, yet you dismiss Yao even though he's the post scorer I stagger Laimbeer with.

Now, you have Laimbeer trying (emphasis on the "try" part) to guard the quick and svelte Anthony Davis. It'll work if your offense slows down the game (predicated by a superior point guard) and walk the ball up the floor each possession. You'll get in trouble if you try to switch Laimbeer on the ultra-athletic Robinson instead.

If you actually watched Laimbeer play, you'd know that his weakness was that he couldn't block shots or keep up with any quick big that could face up and go, but made up for it by being a cheap shot artist.

Nope. Laimbeer was no modern "stretch four." He was a center who bullied weaker centers, and pulled better ones away from his superior teammates from the low post. You don't have a legitimate low post guy - be it a power forward like Elvin Hayes or Kevin Willis.

Saying you have one in Yao Ming is a non sequitur when you're not even starting him.

I have no problem with a mismatch against who is probably his worst offensive starter. You said it yourself, he makes up for his lack of shotblocking or quickness.

If he was indeed a center who bullied weaker centers, wouldn't he be able to push the skinny Anthony Davis around? Why does your mismatch only work one way and not the other?

I won't be starting Yao doesn't mean I won't be playing him. Also, I brought that up because you were hating on Yao, yet he brings exactly what you expect from a guy playing next to Bill Russell to the table (as mentioned earlier).

I didn't say that they were better on the box than Bill Russell, but perhaps English is not your first language.

Bill Russell was effective in the half court with an accurate left hook and scored mostly on put backs and a strange low flying, wrist-snapping shot that was partly a jumper and one handed shot. He averaged 15 ppg in his career, but you gotta understand he was one of the fastest centers ever, and that made the Celtics run a five man fast break. Many of his points came on dunks at the trail end of those breaks.

Now, kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.

This was what you said earlier on:

"The Detroit Pistons had low post scorers galore in Mahorn, Dantley, Edwards with that turnaround, etc. You have at best Russell in the high post as an offensive hub for cutters and jump shooters off picks. "

I have, "at best" Russell, which clearly implies he does less than what of Mahorn etc. Even if Russell wasn't known for being a low-post scorer, he was clearly more capable than Mahorn and Edwards who were roleplayers at best. Perhaps the ability to infer and comprehend isn't your strongest suit.

[kshutts1]

Wally, when considering the playmakers that Raider does, or does not, possess, keep in mind his guards off the bench... Johnson and Porter.

All in all, I'd say playmaking is pretty even.

As to your post about intangibles... It's not something I consider. I actually don't believe that "knowing how to win" matters that much. Reasoning is that.. these guys are world class athletes, and most of them have been competing against the best since they were in HS. When you compete against the best, no matter the age, you learn/know how to play/win. Maybe I'm super naive, and there is more to it than that...
That being said, there are varying degrees. And your team has more "heart" with Russell, Thomas, Dumars.. but don't discount Robinson, Durant, and then my opinion is that any great defender needs "heart", so you can also consider Chandler (lead that Mavs team), Mookie and Jones.

I'm a big fan of shooting/spacing, and that's ultimately why I voted against you in this matchup. And that's not changing. But you have done the best job defending your team, and I wish I could give you a "moral victory" for that. But regardless, great great job.

[barkleynash]

Just to let everyone know, no need to vote for yourself as that is implied the moment you post an argument for your team. However if one GM makes an argument and the other doesn't post anything then that will be used as a tie break (before the higher seed home court game 7 tie break)

[wally_world]

Official votes are for Kurple and myself.

Kareem will school Dwight and prime GHill probably one of the best guys to put on LeBron. Also, just don't like the whole chemistry in team Random.

[barkleynash]

Congrats to Team Kurple and Team Raider for advancing to the next round. You will be matched up against each other next and I will post a link to that series as soon as it is up.

[barkleynash]

Link to 2nd round: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...9#post10683079