Game Thread: Denver Nuggets (2-7) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (5-3) - 11/17/14

[NugzFan]

I don't need to cherry pick. Even before his injury he wasn't doing crap in Denver other than making Shaqtin a Fool highlights.

He was averaging 12/9 with 2.5 blocks when we traded him. Contrary to your idiotic posts he didn't become a different player when he went to the Nuggets. He was still a fool with no clue how to play D.

He has consistently had a terrible +/- ever since he was traded to Denver. Our defense went from bad to good the day he was traded.

You do cherry pick. Don't even pretend otherwise. It's the exact reason your trolling posts pop up whenever convenient.

The Shaqtin a fool means nothing. Most of it comes from his reputation from Washington ironically.

So keep trying to feel better about your team by obsessing on McGee. I'm sure the next time he makes a mistake you'll post again while ignoring anything wizard players do. And yes they do make them. Every team does.

[NugzFan]

McGee's offense wasn't the reason why the Wizards got rid of him. Defensively he was horrible in spite of his blocks. That hasn't changed. That is why he hasn't gotten many minutes in Denver.

That and a broken leg.

He only played 18 minutes per game in your 57 win season.

At the time of the trade that Nugz clown went on and on and on about how Mcgee would do so much better for a quality orginization. Sure

He did do better in Denver than Washington.

[tontoz]

That and a broken leg.



He did do better in Denver than Washington.

He played only 18 minutes per game for an entire season before he broke his leg. Why did he play so few minutes if he was playing so well?

Obsessing on McGee? i didn't even mention him for over a year. The only reason i brought it up today was seeing a Nuggets fan asking for a center LMAO.

You are just butthurt that all the BS you posted at the time of the trade proved to be just that, BS.

McGee made the same dumb mistakes in Denver that he did in DC, hence the Shaqtin a Fool MVP. He made the same dumb mistakes on D as well which is why Karl didn't want to play him much.

[NuggetsFan]

He played only 18 minutes per game for an entire season before he broke his leg. Why did he play so few minutes if he was playing so well?

Karl used him in bursts. He only played like 4 minutes less than Kosta. He actually ended up playing more minutes than him in the playoffs I believe. 9/5 with 2 blocks off the bench is nowhere near his paycheck and doesn't make him a All-Star but he was massive off the bench. Doubt he even gets back to that point. Karl had him making less mistakes and used him to swing momentum. Kinda like Birdman.

Your also forgetting to mention his asthma and Denver's altitude. It factored in for sure.

I'd say he played better on Denver regardless of less minutes/stats. He put up numbers on lottery teams that were a mess. Kinda like if he was putting up numbers now. His best play came against the Lakers that one playoff series, after that he was huge coming off the bench for a 57 win team. I'd rather that than what he did with Washington on those brutal teams that he played a huge part in.

McGee hasn't looked good in forever tho

[tontoz]

Karl used him in bursts. He only played like 4 minutes less than Kosta. He actually ended up playing more minutes than him in the playoffs I believe. 9/5 with 2 blocks off the bench is nowhere near his paycheck and doesn't make him a All-Star but he was massive off the bench. Doubt he even gets back to that point. Karl had him making less mistakes and used him to swing momentum. Kinda like Birdman.

Your also forgetting to mention his asthma and Denver's altitude. It factored in for sure.

I'd say he played better on Denver regardless of less minutes/stats. He put up numbers on lottery teams that were a mess. Kinda like if he was putting up numbers now. His best play came against the Lakers that one playoff series, after that he was huge coming off the bench for a 57 win team. I'd rather that than what he did with Washington on those brutal teams that he played a huge part in.

McGee hasn't looked good in forever tho

You guys knew he had asthma when you traded for him and then resigned him, which was another headscrather for me. Did you really pay $10+ million/yr knowing he would only play 20 minutes per game? Why would a team at altitude take a chance on a project like McGee that has asthma?

The guy you had starting in front of him, who you traded for peanuts, is making only $3 million/yr.

And let's not forget that the Nuggets played at the 2nd fastest pace in the league in 2013 which inflates their numbers.

He averaged 12/9 in his last year with the Wiz. Doubt he ever sees that again in his career. And the Wizards became a .500+ team the day he left. His turnstile defense was a big reason the Wizards were losers.

I remember one play where Witman (our coach) signaled goaltend before the opposing player even took the shot. He knew exactly what McGee was going to do.

[NuggetsFan]

You guys knew he had asthma when you traded for him and then resigned him, which was another headscrather for me. Did you really pay $10+ million/yr knowing he would only play 20 minutes per game? Why would a team at altitude take a chance on a project like McGee that has asthma?

The guy you had starting in front of him, who you traded for peanuts, is making only $3 million/yr.

And let's not forget that the Nuggets played at the 2nd fastest pace in the league in 2013 which inflates their numbers.

He averaged 12/9 in his last year with the Wiz. Doubt he ever sees that again in his career. And the Wizards became a .500+ team the day he left. His turnstile defense was a big reason the Wizards were losers.

I remember one play where Witman (our coach) signaled goaltend before the opposing player even took the shot. He knew exactly what McGee was going to do.

It was an awful contract. What are you trying to argue? Nobody denies it was a brutal contract

2nd fastest pace probably hurt McGee. He was winded alot and probably why he wasn't the full time starter. As a I said he played 4 minutes less than Kosta, and played more minutes in the playoffs. Karl always did shit like that. He wanted McGee with Dre coming off the bench.

McGee had a game winner that one game with Denver going after the basket. He had goaltends but he also had big plays and was huge for Denver at times. You can take 12/9 on brutal teams that had no chance at making the playoffs. I'll take 9/5 with 2 blocks on a 57 win team. Personal preference, I think lottery teams inflates numbers far more than pace.

What he did in the Lakers series was greater than anything he did in Washington. While he no doubt had some stinkers he was blocking everything and had games of 16/15 & 21/14. He shot 1-7 in game 7 but grabbed 14 rebounds and blocked 5 shots.

He went on to play a big role off the bench, started next season and had a season ending injury and now the entire Nuggets team is a mess. McGee looks like shit and I don't want him gone and it's easy to say now but that wasn't always the case. It's the NBA it happens.

[tontoz]

It was an awful contract. What are you trying to argue? Nobody denies it was a brutal contract

2nd fastest pace probably hurt McGee. He was winded alot and probably why he wasn't the full time starter. As a I said he played 4 minutes less than Kosta, and played more minutes in the playoffs. Karl always did shit like that. He wanted McGee with Dre coming off the bench.

McGee had a game winner that one game with Denver going after the basket. He had goaltends but he also had big plays and was huge for Denver at times. You can take 12/9 on brutal teams that had no chance at making the playoffs. I'll take 9/5 with 2 blocks on a 57 win team. Personal preference, I think lottery teams inflates numbers far more than pace.

What he did in the Lakers series was greater than anything he did in Washington. While he no doubt had some stinkers he was blocking everything and had games of 16/15 & 21/14. He shot 1-7 in game 7 but grabbed 14 rebounds and blocked 5 shots.

He went on to play a big role off the bench, started next season and had a season ending injury and now the entire Nuggets team is a mess. McGee looks like shit and I don't want him gone and it's easy to say now but that wasn't always the case. It's the NBA it happens.

McGee has had an awful +/- with Denver each season, including the season he was traded. His defensive awareness is horrible. I am sure that is why Karl refused to start him and that is why Wizards fans dont miss him.

There were people acting like McGee would suddenly break out after getting out of DC. Instead he has been a limited minute backup playing behind nobodies.

[NuggetsFan]

McGee has had an awful +/- with Denver each season, including the season he was traded. His defensive awareness is horrible. I am sure that is why Karl refused to start him and that is why Wizards fans dont miss him.

There were people acting like McGee would suddenly break out after getting out of DC. Instead he has been a limited minute backup playing behind nobodies.

Now your just changing your argument. McGee improved was the only thing I was saying. 12/9 on lottery teams is useless. He got minutes/opportunity in Washington he wasn't going to realistic get on teams that were competitive.

Karl didn't "refuse" to start him. Stop making things up. Karl is well known for "it's not who starts but who finishes games". It was well known Karl loved Miller/McGee paired up and Miller was never going to start. Brewer also came off the bench and McGee fit into what the 2nd unit was doing. Karl also loved to go small which obviously McGee never fit into.

McGee averaged 20 minutes to Mozzy/Kosta's 16/15 in his first 20 Nuggets games. Started less games than both. Kosta played 22 min the next season and McGee played 18. McGee played 26 minutes against the Lakers in the playoffs, far more than any other C. He played more minutes than Kosta against the Warriors and started a few games as well. So this whole he couldn't even start is pretty laughable. Next season he was done for the year, and this year the Nuggets are a mess.

+/- is useless in basketball too. Which is why it's not a statistic that's used heavily. It's a game of runs and units that are constantly changed. Different substitution patterns and especially with a team like Denver who was constantly running and scorers were up and down. I seen first hand against the Lakers McGee have a massive positive impact. Not saying it's completely irrelevant because McGee does have brutal defensive positioning and while he did improve he was making mistakes still. Just that it's not the entire story and McGee did play a large part in those 57 wins considering how are bench was one of if not the best in the entire league. +/- doesn't change that.

That to me better than what he did with the Wizards. After what he did against L.A of course people expected him to break out. He's 7 feet tall with the mobility of a guard and freakish athletic tools. His game wasn't completely raw either. His basketball IQ is among the lowest in the league. Nobody ever disputed that. People are wrong, it happens. Injuries/coaching changes etc. certainly haven't helped. With Mozzy/Nurkic McGee is far better off getting moved, for both sides.

[tontoz]

Now your just changing your argument. McGee improved was the only thing I was saying. 12/9 on lottery teams is useless. He got minutes/opportunity in Washington he wasn't going to realistic get on teams that were competitive.

The Nuggets are a lottery team now and were last year too. Does that mean Faried's numbers are useless?

If the numbers are useless then how can you say McGee improved? I guess the numbers only matter when you want them to.

+/- is useless in basketball too. Which is why it's not a statistic that's used heavily. It's a game of runs and units that are constantly changed. Different substitution patterns and especially with a team like Denver who was constantly running and scorers were up and down.

So the units were constantly changing yet McGee has consistently had a very negative +/-, including the 57 win season. That is what cops refer to as a clue.

Chandler came off the bench that year and was +5.

Nobody playing significant minutes had as bad a +/- as McGee. That was true the year he was traded as well. It was also true with the Wizards when he was a starter. Again, a clue.


And yes it is used a lot in large sample sizes. Feel free to point out a good player who has a badly negative +/- over an extended period.

[kurple]

i dont get your point, do you have one?

[tontoz]

i dont get your point, do you have one?

It doesnt surprise me that you don't get it. Seems to be a common theme with Nuggets fans.

Again people like Nugzfan were saying that all McGee needed was to get out of DC and he would break out. He went on and on and on about how Mcgee's problems were just because he was with the Wizards, that a quality organization would allow him to be an impact player.

That was nonsense. In fact the opposit is true. He hasn't done crap in Denver and it was the Wizards that improved significantly the day he left.

Nuggets fans didn't get it then and still don't.

[NuggetsFan]

The Nuggets are a lottery team now and were last year too. Does that mean Faried's numbers are useless?

Yeah. Faried wasn't putting up 16/10 or whatever it was he was averaging the second half of last year on a playoff team. Context clearly needs to be used as well. Nuggets were derailed by injuries and with Lawson were a .500 ball club. Wizards were consistently a mess and McGee didn't even make the playoffs with that team. If the Nuggets become a consistent lotto team and Lawson averaged 22 points than yeah that's inflated.

Lottery teams inflate numbers more than anything. Everybody puts up better numbers on shittier teams. Teams play you less hard, more minutes, more opportunity. Rosters are less deep and talented so the players who do have talent are relied on heavier. It's pretty much common knowledge. Duncan/Manu/Parker split up last year and placed on a team like Philly have better stats

If the numbers are useless then how can you say McGee improved? I guess the numbers only matter when you want them to.

Shouldn't have used "useless" more like in comparison to his Denver stats. He put up 9/5. So like 3 less points, and 4 less rebounds. On a team that won 57 games and he was a huge part of there 2nd unit which was considered by pretty much everyone as top 3. Of course his stats weren't going to look as good on a team with more talent/depth. He also played in the playoffs twice. Including some massive games against L.A. Take that over garbage time numbers in Washington.

So the units were constantly changing yet McGee has consistently had a very negative +/-, including the 57 win season. That is what cops refer to as a clue.

Strange a person can have such a negative impact on what was statistically one of the better benches. Guess everybody was doing that despite McGee. No disputing the role he played in that 2nd unit.

Chandler came off the bench that year and was +5.

Also played 7 more minutes. How can you ignore that? Those 7 more minutes means more time with the 1st unit and guys like Lawson. He was also used in different lineups like when Karl went small. Which is why +/- has never gained popularity in a era where people love advanced statistics.

Nobody playing significant minutes had as bad a +/- as McGee. That was true the year he was traded as well. It was also true with the Wizards when he was a starter. Again, a clue.

It's without a doubt telling. He still made mistakes, and had mental lapses. Everything needs to considered and your leaving out how Denver had an elite bench. McGee was a massive part of that bench. That tells me despite the +/- stats he never held them back.

And yes it is used a lot in large sample sizes. Feel free to point out a good player who has a badly negative +/- over an extended period.

Not really. I don't know because it's never pointed out and it's never something I've tracked. Your one of the few who use it with McGee because I mean there's so much else you can look at both positive and negative.

McGee's been better in Denver than in Washington. Only point I made. Also informing you about the minutes/starting which you obviously weren't completely aware of because you've never really responded to that or used that argument again. He has a terrible contract, Denver's a mess, and never broke out like he could have. So not really sure what the argument really is at this point.

[NuggetsFan]

It doesnt surprise me that you don't get it. Seems to be a common theme with Nuggets fans.

Yeah. All 6 of us on this site. You only ever pop up about McGee, because your a Wizards fan

Again people like Nugzfan were saying that all McGee needed was to get out of DC and he would break out. He went on and on and on about how Mcgee's problems were just because he was with the Wizards, that a quality organization would allow him to be an impact player.

He was significantly less stupid. Played on a 57 win team. Made the playoffs twice. Nuggets helped cover up his mistakes with a better team and used him better. Nights when he was a mess he got less minutes, when he was on he was relied on more. Your +/- stats prove this point. Everything was "terrible" yet the Nuggets had a top 3 bench which he played a role in.

That was nonsense. In fact the opposit is true. He hasn't done crap in Denver and it was the Wizards that improved significantly the day he left.

Of course the Wizards improved. McGee was very much part of there problems. Probably why they made the trade. Split the knuckleheads up, makes perfect sense. Nuggets were in a position to take on a knuckle head and use it to there advantage, which they did. Check the L.A playoff series

[tontoz]

I'll tell you what inflates numbers, playing against bench players as opposed to starters. You do realize starters are generally better, right? And guys can look for their shot more often when the starters are on the bench.

McGee's negative defensive impact can be seen very clearly in the games before and after the trade:

-Before the trade the Wizards gave up 100 points or more in 12 of 13 games. In the other game they gave up 98.

-After the trade the Wizards gave up 100 points only once in their next 11 games. in that one game they gave up only 102.

I have never seen a defensive turnaround like that and it shows very clearly that McGee's negative +/- is not a fluke.

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/schedule...ington-wizards

[NuggetsFan]

I'll tell you what inflates numbers, playing against bench players as opposed to starters. You do realize starters are generally better, right? And guys can look for their shot more often when the starters are on the bench.

Yeah except starters are subbed out in different patterns. It's not always 5 bench players vs 5 bench players, atleast not for extended periods of times. There was times McGee faced the starters. He played Pau/Bynum alot in the playoffs, which is why he got so much hype. It factors in tho I agree. I think the shitty team inflates numbers more tho. McGee had less rebounds/points because he played with better scorers/rebounders in Denver.

But than you agree with me right? You have a habit of just forgetting about some of the stuff you say when I respond to it. Players put up better numbers on lottery teams for the most part, correct?

McGee's negative defensive impact can be seen very clearly in the games before and after the trade:

Sure as a I said Washington was filled with dummies. McGee was one of them so getting rid of them had a positive effect. Just like Denver's elite bench and McGee's role in that could be seen very clearly.

Before the trade the Wizards gave up 100 points or more in 12 of 13 games. In the other game they gave up 98.

-After the trade the Wizards gave up 100 points only once in their next 11 games. in that one game they gave up only 102.

I have never seen a defensive turnaround like that and it shows very clearly that McGee's negative +/- is not a fluke.

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/schedule...ington-wizards

Wizards also got rid of Nick Young. I'm not familiar of there minute situation and what happened post McGee trade so unlike you I won't just say random shit for the sake of saying it.

I'm sure the +/- wasn't a fluke with the Wiz if you say so. You continually ignore McGee's role in what was a top 3 statistical bench both by the numbers and most people's opinion. The bench was massive in Denver's success, more so than most teams without legit "stars". McGee played a big part in that but that's a fluke because of +/-? Seems kinda strange you want me to ignore something completely, while acknowledging what your saying when your doing the exact same thing to me. McGee still made mistakes and had a negative impact at times, also had a really positive impact at times that made Denver's bench that much better I'll take that over 3 more points, 4 more rebounds on a mess of a team.

Once again not sure your point. McGee's contract is bad. He's a knucklehead who had a negative impact in Washington. Still a knucklehead but was used more efficiently in Denver and had some success with them for 2 years. He got hurt and now Denver's a mess. Yet to be seen how the rest plays out, we could be looking at being Washington a few years back.