Duncan lost in the first round as a 1 seed

[StrongLurk]

I'd like to add the higher-winning 3 seed that you found to the list below as an MJ loss, but then I'd have to do that for everyone - that's uneccessary work since the list below clearly shows MJ is the most unbeatable player (aka goat):

Losses as 1 or 2 seed


Bird: 5
Magic: 6
Wilt: 9
Russell: 2
Kareem: 9
Kobe: 4
Shaq: 5
Duncan: 6
Lebron: 6
the goat: 0

With the minimal help that all stars need to win, MJ was the most unbeatable and won the most in the modern era..

MJ was a 1 or 2 seed in the expansion era, everyone knows the 90's were the weakest era for "elite" teams.

MJ would have lost at some point if he went up against the 80's Lakers/Celtics or some of the superteams of the post 2008 Celtics.

[Kblaze8855]

I'd like to add the higher-winning 3 seed that you found to the list below as an MJ loss, but then I'd have to do that for everyone - that's uneccessary work since the list below clearly shows MJ is the most unbeatable player (aka goat):

Losses as 1 or 2 seed


Bird: 5
Magic: 6
Wilt: 9
Russell: 2
Kareem: 9
Kobe: 4
Shaq: 5
Duncan: 6
Lebron: 6
the goat: 0

With the minimal help that all stars need to win, MJ was the most unbeatable and won the most in the modern era..

That I found? I just remember 1990. I remember watching the games hearing it discussed and what you said would be quite misleading to people too young to know better.

[rmt]

[QUOTE=toxicxr6]Didn

[3ball]

MJ was a 1 or 2 seed in the expansion era, everyone knows the 90's were the weakest era for "elite" teams.

MJ would have lost at some point if he went up against the 80's Lakers/Celtics or some of the superteams of the post 2008 Celtics.

Perhaps the Bulls might've lost a series to the Celtics or Lakers, since it would've been dynasty juggernaut vs. dynasty juggernaut (which only ever happened previously in the 80's)

But they would've won a bunch too, and therein lies the rub - facing great teams doesn't prevent you from having great teams yourself that can compete evenly/effectively... But Lebron failed to compete effectively because he's 2-6 against the Spurs/Warriors/Mavs, including 2 sweeps, 2 record defeats, and the goat choke

Btw, MJ played in a 2-star vs 2-star format and won 6 rings (6/6); Lebron played in a 3 star vs 3-star format and won 3 rings (3/9).. so that speaks to the "superiority" of lebron's opponents, or lack thereof since Lebron always had 3-4 HOF teammates himself.

Finally, Lebron was compensated for his perceived Finals "comp" by getting more Finals chances via weaker comp in the first 3 rounds (weak conference)

[StrongLurk]

Perhaps the Bulls might've lost a series to the Celtics or Lakers, since it would've been dynasty juggernaut vs. dynasty juggernaut (which only ever happened previously in the 80's)

But they would've won a bunch too, and therein lies the rub - facing great teams doesn't prevent you from having great teams yourself that can compete evenly/effectively... But Lebron failed to compete effectively because he's 2-6 against the Spurs/Warriors/Mavs, including 2 sweeps, 2 record defeats, and the goat choke

Btw, MJ played in a 2-star vs 2-star format and won 6 rings (6/6); Lebron played in a 3 star vs 3-star format and won 3 rings (3/9).. so that speaks to the "superiority" of lebron's opponents, or lack thereof since Lebron always had 3-4 HOF teammates himself.

Finally, Lebron was compensated for his perceived Finals "comp" by getting more Finals chances via weaker comp in the first 3 rounds (weak conference)

Like how you leave out the 2012 Thunder who were a great team and won 4 in a row against the Spurs in the WCF after going down 0-2.

Also Lebron did not have a 3 star team in 2007, 2014, 2015 and 2018.

The only time that MJ would have won where Lebron lost was 2011.

[3ball]

Like how you leave out the 2012 Thunder who were a great team and won 4 in a row against the Spurs in the WCF after going down 0-2.

Also Lebron did not have a 3 star team in 2007, [COLOR="Blue"]2014[/COLOR], 2015 and 2018.

The only time that MJ would have won where Lebron lost was 2011.

14' [COLOR="White"].[/COLOR]Wade[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] - 19 on 55% in ECF.. 15 on 41% in Finals.. 32 yrs old.. all-star for 2 more yrs
98' Pippen - 16 on 41% in ECF.. 15 on 41% in Finals.. 33 yrs old.. last all-star year was 97'

(btw, Bosh was 29 in 2014 and in his uber-prime, but everyone knows there was only a limited role for him next to lebron's style)

So if Wade and Bosh weren't stars in 2014, than Pippen wasn't a star in 97 or 98'... The 14' Heat were a definitely a 3-star team with Lebron/Wade/Bosh plus an extra HOF in Ray Allen

And you're overrating the Spurs because of how they beat the Heat... you're forgetting that the 91' Bulls ended the Pistons' back-to-back run the same way that the Spurs did the Heat - yet you claim other teams like the 80's teams could beat the 90's Bulls, while the 14' Spurs are unbeatable and NO ONE could've beaten them?.. gtfo.. that makes no sense.. the Mavs almost beat them in the first round and MJ would beat them easily with 2 other stars plus Ray Allen (3 HOF teammates)

MJ simply never lost with help like that... you forget that MJ would've been 4/4 from 90-93' if not for Pip's migraine - he wouldn't have that issue vs the Spurs and would have an extra star and 2 extra HOF teammates.. btw, MJ's 90' run shows the massive talent deficit that the bulls had to the Pistons - and the 91' team was basically the same as the 90' team - the Bulls simply overcame a more talented juggernaut dynasty in their own conference.. period
.

[brooks_thompson]

Man that wasn't Duncan's fault. Playoffs Grizz were better than their record because Rudy Gay was out injured (closer to a 50-55 win team like they would be the following years). Popovich barely played Splitter for some reason, considering the rest of the frontcourt was Bonner, Blair, and I think maybe a rickety McDyess in his very last season. Randolph, matured and at his absolute peak, was on a mission that year.

Will remind you that the Grizz took OKC to 7 in the next round, including an OT and triple OT thriller (those 2 teams always had the best slug it out series). They would've beaten the Heat as well, should they have gotten past the magical Dallas team. Grizz due to their frontcourt always had Miami's number.

[Spurs m8]

Wild wild West confirmed.

And he STILL won 5 titles.

How many titles did LeRoid win playing in the weakest conferences we have ever seen?

[Gunslinger]

Didn’t manu.. Duncan’s second option play with a broken arm that series?

Yes and missed game 1 too. In addition, Pop played Bonner and Blair (imagine either of them vs Zach or M. Gasol) over Splitter who did not get off the bench until game 4 - yet another stupid mistake by Pop.

Man that wasn't Duncan's fault. Playoffs Grizz were better than their record because Rudy Gay was out injured (closer to a 50-55 win team like they would be the following years). Popovich barely played Splitter for some reason, considering the rest of the frontcourt was Bonner, Blair, and I think maybe a rickety McDyess in his very last season. Randolph, matured and at his absolute peak, was on a mission that year.

Will remind you that the Grizz took OKC to 7 in the next round, including an OT and triple OT thriller (those 2 teams always had the best slug it out series). They would've beaten the Heat as well, should they have gotten past the magical Dallas team. Grizz due to their frontcourt always had Miami's number.

Good to see actual context being brought to the table rather than just biased basketball reference extrapolations.

Too bad the OP won't respond to any of these important details as he's just an unknowledgeable Branvestite who brings no value to this forum other than clickbaity threads aimed at deceptively deconstructing other GOAT rivals.

[SouBeachTalents]

Like how you leave out the 2012 Thunder who were a great team and won 4 in a row against the Spurs in the WCF after going down 0-2.

Also Lebron did not have a 3 star team in 2007, 2014, 2015 and 2018.

The only time that MJ would have won where Lebron lost was 2011.

For real, lol at that dude leaving off the Thunder for absolutely no reason

And of course he completely sidestepped your argument that he didn't have 2 stars for the majority of his Finals losses, then doubled down by claiming Wade in 2014 Finals played as well as Pippen in '98 :

[Gunslinger]

To be fair, LeBron missed the play-offs three times, including one in his prime.

Making the play-offs > missing the play-offs.

And don't give me no excuses about "LeBron was injured." Manu, Duncan's second option had a fukking broken arm and you ignored that. Gotta do the same for old Bran Bran.

[StrongLurk]

For real, lol at that dude leaving off the Thunder for absolutely no reason

And of course he completely sidestepped your argument that he didn't have 2 stars for the majority of his Finals losses, then doubled down by claiming Wade in 2014 Finals played as well as Pippen in '98 :

Of course he didn't address my post, just like he never addresses MJ losing in the 95 playoffs.

[3ball]

For real, lol at that dude leaving off the Thunder for absolutely no reason

And of course he completely sidestepped your argument that he didn't have 2 stars for the majority of his Finals losses, then doubled down by claiming Wade in 2014 Finals played as well as Pippen in '98 :

I left off the thunder because it's irrelevant - the original argument was that facing great teams doesn't prevent you from having a great team yourself that can compete evenly/effectively - but lebron is 2-5 vs. the Spurs/Warriors, so he didn't compete evenly/effectively with them

And lebron had 2 stars for the 2011, 2014, and 2017 losses - the series ranged from decisive losses (11') to record blowout (14, 17').. there's no getting around that... MJ and many other players would've won in 11' and 14'.

And even though he didn't have 2 stars in 2007 or 2018, did he have to play so horribly in 2007 or lose by record amount in 18'?.. 07' was individual failure/underperformance, and 18' was team failure/underperformance.

And again, 14' Wade was the younger player who had more good years left compared to 98' Pippen, who was done.. both played poorly in the playoffs, whether we're talking ECF or Finals - but regardless, both were still considered "stars".. (i.e. lebron lost with 2 star teammates in 14')... ..

[StrongLurk]

I left off the thunder because it's irrelevant - the original argument was that facing great teams doesn't prevent you from having a great team yourself that can compete evenly/effectively - but lebron is 2-5 vs. the Spurs/Warriors, so he didn't compete evenly/effectively with them

And lebron had 2 stars for the 2011, 2014, and 2017 losses - the series ranged from decisive losses (11') to record blowout (14, 17').. there's no getting around that... MJ and many other players would've won in 11' and 14'.

And even though he didn't have 2 stars in 2007 or 2018, did he have to play so horribly in 2007 or lose by record amount in 18'?.. 07' was individual failure/underperformance, and 18' was team failure/underperformance.

And again, 14' Wade was the younger player who had more good years left compared to 98' Pippen, who was done.. both played poorly in the playoffs, whether we're talking ECF or Finals - but regardless, both were still considered "stars".. (i.e. lebron lost with 2 star teammates in 14')... ..

MJ would have lost in 2014, because the Heat got crushed on defense through a barrage of historic three point shooting.

MJ never faced a team like that who could hit 15-20 threes a game and play elite defense at the same time.

[3ball]