The "who should have been" MVP in the year...

[NugzHeat3]

Really good list. Not too different from my complete list.

1990- Jordan
1991- Jordan
1992- Jordan
1993- Hakeem (can't argue against Barkley too much, though)
1994- Hakeem (Robinson also has a good case considering it's a regular season award)
1995- Robinson
1996- Jordan
1997- Jordan
1998- Jordan
1999- Duncan (can't argue too much against Zo or Malone)
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq
2002- Duncan
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Nash (Dirk and Shaq also have good cases)
2006- Kobe (wouldn't argue against Nash or Dirk either)
2007- Dirk
2008- Kobe (Paul also had a good case)
2009- Lebron
2010- Lebron
2011- Dwight (Lebron and Dirk are right up there)

I like your picks but I don't see much of a case for LeBron this year, Dirk in 2005 or Robinson in 1994.

LeBron's chances were always going to be lower playing next to someone who was nearly as good as him in the season. One of the reasons LeBron had better stats was because of our substitution pattern. He'd spend more time on the floor w/o Wade than Wade would w/o him.

1994 Robinson is one of the greatest stat stuffing seasons ever and I'm not sure if Robinson was ever a true MVP caliber player.

Dirk in 2005 seems a bit odd. I don't remember him being in the race.

It was close between Nash and Shaq. I thought Shaq was robbed. Even though his scoring was down, he was still guarded like a 30+ scorer drawing double and triple teams and he made us a feared team come playoff time. That was a big step from the 2004 team even though they finished on a 50 win pace with everyone healthy after the All-Star break.

But Shaq missed a few games with a knee and a thigh bruise so that may have factored in the voters minds.

[SCdac]

McGrady had one of the all-time great offensive seasons that year, for what it's worth.

What is it worth? I guess is the question (rhetorical). Duncan meant more to his team-success IMO, and wasn't exactly playing with any all-stars or fringe all-stars either. I agree McGrady at the time was arguably the best swingman in the game, but I question his work overall work ethic, and question his overall shot selection. Taking upwards of 10 three's a game is bound to make your offensive #'s look good - but is it helping the team? For what it's worth, come the playoffs, Duncan's assists per game jumped to 5+ per game, while McGrady's dropped from the RS to 4.7 per game.

[Fatal9]

1990: Barkley
1991: Jordan
1992: Jordan
1993: Olajuwon
1994: Olajuwon
1995: Robinson
1996: Jordan
1997: Jordan
1998: Jordan
1999: Zo
2000: Shaq
2001: Shaq
2002: Duncan
2003: Duncan
2004: KG
2005: Shaq
2006: Nash
2007: Nowitzki
2008: Kobe
2009: James
2010: James
2011: Rose

This. Except, Dirk or Dwight for Rose this year and probably Malone in '98.

[SCdac]

Three things:
1. Never said Duncan didn't deserve it.
2. McGrady shot 39% on threes that year, which is awesome considering the number of threes he took.
3. There was no point for McGrady to pass as much in the playoffs against good defenses, considering he was the only player on the team doing ANYTHING on offense. One game he had 46 of the team's 77 points and shot 60% or so while the rest of the team shot like 24% (ask shaqattack for more clarification, he remembers the game I'm talking about)

I guess if you're making 3's at a decent clip, it's better than not, he's not a "bad shooter".. but should it necessarily give a player free reign? He's the best, highest paid, player on the team so of course he did have free reign, but like I said his shot selection was questionable. He shot 36% in the last three games against Detroit, took 17 three's but only made 4. There's a fine line between shooting yourself and your team into a desperate win, and shooting yourself and your team out of games. I guess it just doesn't scream "MVP" to me, as much as it does an amazing offensive player who happened to be on a not so great team.

[Math2]

Skipped all years where the rightful winner won...

1959- Russell
1966-West
1969-Billy Cunningham
1975-Rick Barry
1977-Walton
1978-Kareem
1981-Bird
1982-Bird
1985-Magic
1988-Magic
1990-Barkley
1993-Jordan
1997-Jordan
2001-Shaq
2005-Shaq
2006-Kobe
2007-Nash
2008-Garnett
2009-Kobe
2010-Kobe
2011-Howard

[ShaqAttack3234]

LeBron's chances were always going to be lower playing next to someone who was nearly as good as him in the season. One of the reasons LeBron had better stats was because of our substitution pattern. He'd spend more time on the floor w/o Wade than Wade would w/o him.

Yeah, I just consider him because I did still feel he was in the discussion for best player in the league, put up great numbers(27/8/7, 51 FG%), played excellent defense and won 58 games. It's a tough year, though.

Howard might be the best pick considering his cast easily explains the 52 wins(low for an MVP candidate) and stepped up his offense to 23 ppg on 59% shooting, grabbed his usual 14 boards, won DPOY and made Orlando a top 3 defensive team. I'm not sure anyone was relied on that much at both ends. I mean his only 15+ ppg teammate was a washed up Vince Carter who only played 22 games with the team. None of his teammates were really consistent offensively, and we all know that Orlando doesn't have many solid defensive players.

I was really impressed with his growth as a player, not only offensively, but cutting down on his fouls after the Gortat trade, which I said at the time would be a blessing in disguise for his growth as a player because it'd force him to do so.

So the more I think about it, the more convinced I am on Howard deserving the award. But Dirk's case is overlooked too, imo, other than when he was injured, his numbers were right up there with his MVP season, and the fact that Dallas went 55-18 with him and 2-7 without him, lost Butler ect. makes me consider him.

1994 Robinson is one of the greatest stat stuffing seasons ever and I'm not sure if Robinson was ever a true MVP caliber player.

That's true, just threw him in there because he got a pretty limited cast 55 wins and was relied on a lot. Hakeem is my pick.

Dirk in 2005 seems a bit odd. I don't remember him being in the race.

He got some talk, but most considered it between Nash and Shaq. But sometimes I lean towards Dirk. He certainly had the numbers(26/10/3, 46 FG%, 58 TS%) and despite Dallas losing key players such as Nash, he led them to 58 wins despite a lot of injuries to his team.

It was close between Nash and Shaq. I thought Shaq was robbed. Even though his scoring was down, he was still guarded like a 30+ scorer drawing double and triple teams and he made us a feared team come playoff time. That was a big step from the 2004 team even though they finished on a 50 win pace with everyone healthy after the All-Star break.

But Shaq missed a few games with a knee and a thigh bruise so that may have factored in the voters minds.

Yeah, it's tough, at the time, I was one of the "Shaq was robbed" guys, but partially because Nash's improvement caught me off guard. I thought of him as one of the better point guards before then, but never an MVP-caliber player, and it took me a while to appreciate how good he had become.

Nash had a lot of offensive firepower around him with all of those shooters and scorers, but he really made that team the offensive juggernaut they were, and that's how they won 62 games because their defense was mediocre.

Of course, he led the league in assists and held back his scoring to 15.5 ppg, but was capable of scoring a lot more and taking over as he proved in the Dallas series(30+ ppg) or the entire playoffs(almost 24 ppg) without his playmaking or efficiency suffering.

And the team was 2-5 without him, plus they scored 121.7 points per 100 possessions with him on the court, and just 104.1 points per 100 possessions with him off the court, and it was obvious how much Stoudemire and Marion as well as the shooters benefited from him. Great in transition, or pick and rolls.

But you're right, can't disregard Shaq either. You simply couldn't defend him like a normal player and his arrival and presence made Miami a championship contender instantly.

And Wade's comments certainly reflect these things.

"Everyone is focused on him," Wade said. "I've never seen anyone get the attention he does. When Shaq's on the floor, thing open up for me. It's been a little easier for me to pick and choose my spots. The attention that he draws makes things a lot easier when he's on the floor."

"Shaq [O'Neal] gives you confidence at both ends of the floor," said Wade. "We (the Heat) know defense wins ballgames, and we have a long way to go, still. But it is our defense that has helped win ballgames early."

http://www.wpxi.com/nba/3910401/detail.html

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...had&id=1915767
[QUOTE]

[D.J.]

1990- Barkley
1991- Jordan
1992- Jordan
1993- Barkley
1994- Pippen
1995- Shaq
1996- Jordan
1997- Malone
1998- Jordan
1999- Mourning
2000- Shaq
2001- Iverson
2002- Kidd
2003- McGrady
2004- Garnett
2005- Nash
2006- Kobe
2007- Dirk
2008- Paul
2009- Wade
2010- LeBron
2011- Rose

[magnax1]

I'm not sure about Malone. Jordan played all 82 games despite injuries and led Chicago to a 26-12 record without Pippen.

Malone only led Utah to an 11-7 record without Stockton and Malone's own numbers dropped without Stockton.

With Stockton- 27.7 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 4 apg, 2.9 TO, 53.2 FG%, 60.1 TS%, 37.3 mpg
Without Stockton- 24.9 ppg,11.1 rpg, 3.6 apg, 3.6 TO, 52.3 FG%, 58.2 TS%, 36.6 mpg

Didn't Jordan have a similar drop in stats without Pippen though?

[NugzHeat3]

Yeah, I just consider him because I did still feel he was in the discussion for best player in the league, put up great numbers(27/8/7, 51 FG%), played excellent defense and won 58 games. It's a tough year, though.

Howard might be the best pick considering his cast easily explains the 52 wins(low for an MVP candidate) and stepped up his offense to 23 ppg on 59% shooting, grabbed his usual 14 boards, won DPOY and made Orlando a top 3 defensive team. I'm not sure anyone was relied on that much at both ends. I mean his only 15+ ppg teammate was a washed up Vince Carter who only played 22 games with the team. None of his teammates were really consistent offensively, and we all know that Orlando doesn't have many solid defensive players.

I was really impressed with his growth as a player, not only offensively, but cutting down on his fouls after the Gortat trade, which I said at the time would be a blessing in disguise for his growth as a player because it'd force him to do so.

So the more I think about it, the more convinced I am on Howard deserving the award. But Dirk's case is overlooked too, imo, other than when he was injured, his numbers were right up there with his MVP season, and the fact that Dallas went 55-18 with him and 2-7 without him, lost Butler ect. makes me consider him.

Good looking out. I forgot about Butler's injury and how bad Dallas did without Dirk.

That's true, just threw him in there because he got a pretty limited cast 55 wins and was relied on a lot. Hakeem is my pick.

I would say Pippen had more of a case than Robinson to be honest although neither really have as good of a case as Hakeem.

He got some talk, but most considered it between Nash and Shaq. But sometimes I lean towards Dirk. He certainly had the numbers(26/10/3, 46 FG%, 58 TS%) and despite Dallas losing key players such as Nash, he led them to 58 wins despite a lot of injuries to his team.

IIRC, they really took off after hiring Avery who emphasized defense a lot more and made them a more balanced team. Nash was schooling them in the playoffs though and I remember some people saying his playoff performance validated the MVP.

Yeah, it's tough, at the time, I was one of the "Shaq was robbed" guys, but partially because Nash's improvement caught me off guard. I thought of him as one of the better point guards before then, but never an MVP-caliber player, and it took me a while to appreciate how good he had become.

Nash had a lot of offensive firepower around him with all of those shooters and scorers, but he really made that team the offensive juggernaut they were, and that's how they won 62 games because their defense was mediocre.

Of course, he led the league in assists and held back his scoring to 15.5 ppg, but was capable of scoring a lot more and taking over as he proved in the Dallas series(30+ ppg) or the entire playoffs(almost 24 ppg) without his playmaking or efficiency suffering.

And the team was 2-5 without him, plus they scored 121.7 points per 100 possessions with him on the court, and just 104.1 points per 100 possessions with him off the court, and it was obvious how much Stoudemire and Marion as well as the shooters benefited from him. Great in transition, or pick and rolls.

Great points. It's why I picked Nash for the 2006 season. That was a very different team than the 2005 one and in a way, it showed who was the key cog of the Suns offense. I always used to say Nash played with a whole lot of talent ignoring that Nash made those guys much better and in retrospect, it's clear Nash was the biggest reason for the Suns success.

But you're right, can't disregard Shaq either. You simply couldn't defend him like a normal player and his arrival and presence made Miami a championship contender instantly.

And Wade's comments certainly reflect these things.

Yeah Wade's improvement certainly had a lot to do with Shaq's presence. I remember we struggled a lot (.500 level) whenever Shaq was out because there would be too much pressure on Wade and teams would just start trapping him and forcing to shoot from the perimeter.

I'm not sure about Malone. Jordan played all 82 games despite injuries and led Chicago to a 26-12 record without Pippen.

Malone only led Utah to an 11-7 record without Stockton and Malone's own numbers dropped without Stockton.

With Stockton- 27.7 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 4 apg, 2.9 TO, 53.2 FG%, 60.1 TS%, 37.3 mpg
Without Stockton- 24.9 ppg,11.1 rpg, 3.6 apg, 3.6 TO, 52.3 FG%, 58.2 TS%, 36.6 mpg

Malone's offense was always going to take a hit with Stockton out. There was just way too much pressure on him to create for an offensively inept team. It didn't make Malone a worse player.

That squad lacked a playmaker besides Stockton and everybody besides Malone was rather weak at creating their own shot or putting pressure on the defense with dribble penetration. That offense was sogood because they relied a lot on ball movement, running shooters off curls and double screens, setting high-post picks with guards cutting down the lane, backdoor cuts ect. They got a lot of easy baskets that way.

But whenever that offense wasn't working or the shooters went cold, they lacked a go-to-guy besides Karl and Stockton couldn't be that guy to take pressure off of him since he wasn't a threat to score. The Jazz in 1998 were 1-13 in games when trailing going into the 4th quarter.

Malone in 1998 was definitely great and MVP worthy although he was still worse than Jordan and Shaq that year.

[Odinn]

1990- Magic
1991- Jordan
1992- Jordan
1993- Barkley (Hakeem)
1994- Hakeem (Robinson)
1995- Robinson
1996- Jordan
1997- K. Malone (Jordan)
1998- K. Malone (Jordan)
1999- Duncan (Zo or Malone)
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq
2002- Duncan
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Shaq (Nash)
2006- Kobe (Nash or Dirk)
2007- Dirk
2008- CP3 (Kobe)
2009- Lebron
2010- Lebron
2011- Dwight (Lebron)

I wouldn't argue too much against names in the parenthesis.

[PHILA]

1966-West

You also forget the Sixers won 10 more games than LA (+ 11 game winning streak to conclude the reg. season) and clinched the Division championship at Baltimore the last game of the season, with Wilt playing his best ball up to that point.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEdiptkyYsY#t=25s




Williamson Daily News - May 28, 1966




The Evening News - Mar 21, 1966

[pauk]

2010-2011: Lebron
2008-2009: Lebron
2007-2008: Lebron
2005-2006: Lebron
2002-2003: Lebron in school

fixed

[ShaqAttack3234]

Didn't Jordan have a similar drop in stats without Pippen though?

Not sure, I think he scored about the same, but his efficiency might have been lower. I'll calculate the stats eventually, but for now, here are his splits for the first 2 months.

October(1 game)- 30/6/4, 3 TO, 7/23 FG, 16/21 FT
November- 27.4 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.7 TO, 43.6 FG%, 69.9 FT%, 15 games
December- 28.4 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.9 TO, 45.2 FG%, 83.1 FT%, 14 games

And the 5 games that he played before Pippen returned in January.

44/5/1, 0 TO, 15/22 FG, 13/15 FT
34/9/9, 4 TO, 12/15 FG, 10/11 FT
19/3/4, 3 TO, 5/13 FG, 9/12 FT
26/4/1, 1 TO, 12/27 FG, 1/3 FT
44/4/2, 1 TO, 17/33 FG, 9/10 FT

Played 3 more games without Pippen sometime later in the season, but looking at the free throw percentage early, I think it makes the theory that Jordan's efficiency was down due to the hand injury credible and you can see his efficiency and FT% rising in December and those 5 January games.

I would say Pippen had more of a case than Robinson to be honest although neither really have as good of a case as Hakeem.

Can't argue with that too much. Hakeem was the right choice, but Pippen could be argued as runner up, especially considering that the Bulls were 4-6 without Pippen, iirc and I believe they were on pace for 60+ wins with Pippen and Grant in the lineup. Scottie had a great season, but it was Hakeem's league then.

IIRC, they really took off after hiring Avery who emphasized defense a lot more and made them a more balanced team. Nash was schooling them in the playoffs though and I remember some people saying his playoff performance validated the MVP.

Good call, Dallas was 42-22 with Nelson and 16-2 with Avery.

Malone's offense was always going to take a hit with Stockton out. There was just way too much pressure on him to create for an offensively inept team. It didn't make Malone a worse player.

That squad lacked a playmaker besides Stockton and everybody besides Malone was rather weak at creating their own shot or putting pressure on the defense with dribble penetration. That offense was sogood because they relied a lot on ball movement, running shooters off curls and double screens, setting high-post picks with guards cutting down the lane, backdoor cuts ect. They got a lot of easy baskets that way.

But whenever that offense wasn't working or the shooters went cold, they lacked a go-to-guy besides Karl and Stockton couldn't be that guy to take pressure off of him since he wasn't a threat to score. The Jazz in 1998 were 1-13 in games when trailing going into the 4th quarter.

Malone in 1998 was definitely great and MVP worthy although he was still worse than Jordan and Shaq that year.

Yeah, but I think the fact that Malone's offensive numbers benefited that much from Stockton and the offense shows that he wasn't quite the scorer that his regular season numbers suggest. By 1998, he had improved his jump shot and post game and his numbers probably benefited less than the late 80's/early 90's version because defense had gotten better and Stockton played significantly more minutes back then. But even in 2003(the only Malone/Stockton season that these numbers are available), he was assisted on an unbelievable 80% of his baskets.

Malone was obviously a very good offensive player, but I think this is partially why his regular season numbers dropped so much in the playoffs because there are less easy baskets available, kind of like Robinson, though to a lesser extent.

I agree that both Jordan and Shaq were better. Shaq was the best individual player by that point, imo, but he missed too many games to win MVP that season.

[Math2]

You also forget the Sixers won 10 more games than LA (+ 11 game winning streak to conclude the reg. season) and clinched the Division championship at Baltimore the last game of the season, with Wilt playing his best ball up to that point.

Touche....but Wilt's best ball (in a team sense) isn't saying much...

[pauk]

Really good list. Not too different from my complete list.

1990- Jordan
1991- Jordan
1992- Jordan
1993- Hakeem (can't argue against Barkley too much, though)
1994- Hakeem (Robinson also has a good case considering it's a regular season award)
1995- Robinson
1996- Jordan
1997- Jordan
1998- Jordan
1999- Duncan (can't argue too much against Zo or Malone)
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq
2002- Duncan
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Nash (Dirk and Shaq also have good cases)
2006- Nash
2007- Dirk
2008- Paul
2009- Lebron
2010- Lebron
2011- Dwight (Lebron and Dirk are right up there)

cant argue against that... replaced only Kobe with Paul in 2008 and Kobe with Nash in 2006