The official jlauber and Wilt Chamberlain thread

[Raz]

But to Gilmore versus Olajuwon you'd expect Olajuwon to have been guarded by Olajuwon because:
a) They were the ones playing the center position
and
b) Sampson didn't have the lower body heft or low center of gravity to keep Gilmore from getting great post position. Not that Olajuwon necessarily did but he had by far the better chance.

100% correct.
Sampson was used exclusively at power forward defensively, he was rail thin, and was not up to the task of guarding huge players like Gilmore. It would be like putting a young Garnett on Shaq in terms of size.

millwad has decided that jlauber has switched opinions on one issue, and can't let it go. I like the guy as a poster usually, but in any jlauber thread, I feel like I need to have millwad on ignore.

[Linspired]

this would be more frequent match up, logically. but i was just too young to remember. one thing certain though is that sampson did guard kareem. question is how often? i wish i can find a tape and watch it.





maybe akeem and sampson just alternated and kareem just owned them both.

[millwad]

100% correct.
Sampson was used exclusively at power forward defensively, he was rail thin, and was not up to the task of guarding huge players like Gilmore. It would be like putting a young Garnett on Shaq in terms of size.

millwad has decided that jlauber has switched opinions on one issue, and can't let it go. I like the guy as a poster usually, but in any jlauber thread, I feel like I need to have millwad on ignore.

You got to understand where I'm coming from to actually understand why I never bought Jlauber's nonsense.

He is spreading his agenda and it's a new one, I can't respect a guy who constantly tells people off and acts like he's some kind of historian with his biased essays.

I can't respect a guy who claims that he actually remembers details in 40 year old series but couldn't remember how good that era was until few years ago.

And I can't especially respect a guy who only spreads one sided and biased info which he copy and pastes from other sites.

Example: Jlauber is the first to tell EVERYONE how dominated Olajuwon got in his rookie and 2nd season as a pro by Kareem, but he's always the last person to tell you that the same 2nd year pro Olajuwon who was no where close to his prime absolutely dominated Kareem in the '86 playoffs.

He's always the first to tell you how Wilt "locked down" Kareem in '72 playoffs but he is the last to tell you that the same Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting on prime defensive Wilt.

And I can't respect a guy who lives on quotes and then make them facts in his imaginary life. He is discrediting every single all-time great big man who played after Wilt just because it fits his agenda. He is the same guy who in this thread called it him owning me because he used quotes as proof..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Damn, Milwad popping jhummer like a zit.

Here are the REAL facts: Wilt WILTED in the postseason. Guy averaged 50.4 ppg during the 1962 regular season yet ELGIN BAYLOR had more ppg in the playoffs.

How about Wilt in game 7's vs Boston? Just 21.0 ppg and 0-4 in those game 7

[Pointguard]

no doubt wilt will be great in any era. but there really is no definite proof on how great will he be in 80's, 90's or 00's. i think wilt's dominance will be more defensive than offense. and wilt will probably be 25/16 type of a player. shaq like, but with less points, but more rebounds. i just don't think the era we live in favors a center scoring all the time.

I always had young Wilt moving like prime Amare (26ppg) in terms of speed but back then you primarily created your own shots. Wilt's athletism was like D Robinson - (league leading 28ppg). His power game second to only to Shaq. Dwight Howard is rare in his activity and his attention to center responsibilities these days. Wilt was way more skilled, fundamental, active and tenacious than they ever were. And flat out had a much better touch. If he was on a running pure point guard's team these days (Wall, Kidd, Nash) Wilt would be a terror.

I think a skilled young Amare type of big man would be the most prolific offensively these days. When Kidd and Nash wanted to run defenses had to go along with it. Even Kenyon Martain and Shawn Marion looked good when they did it. Amare had no polish and no offense ran around him and scored 26 ppg. Should tell you something.

[dunksby]

jlauber always whining about ppl disprespecting wilt while the only way he props up Wilt is by trying to disrespect Kareem which is very hypocritical of him. Fact of the matter is Kareem won championships and shitloads of them on every team he played for whether it was NBA, NCAA and even High School. He is arguably the best Basketball player of all time so it's obvious why jlauber is trying to pretend Wilt dominated Kareem in their matchups. Here are the stats for every match up you be the judge:

As I promised before two weeks I published the data collected by me:

Regular season – 1969-70

1. Date: Fri 10/24/69
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 9-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 23 pts, 20 rebs, 2 as, 2 blocks, 9-21 FG/FGA L

Regular season – 1970-71

2. Date: Fri 11/20/70
- Chamberlain 28 pts, 23 rebs, 3 as, 10 blocks, 7-20 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 13 rebs, 0 as, 2 blocks, 13-32 FG/FGA W

3. Date: Mon 12/21/70
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 2 blocks, 11-23 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 0 as, 4 blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA W

4. Date: Fri 02/05/71
- Chamberlain 14 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 6 blocks, 7-10 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 27 pts, 10 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA L

5. Date: Thu 02/11/71
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 11 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 21 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 13-30 FG/FGA – 2 blocks against Wilt W

6. Date: Wed 03/03/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 13 rebs, 5 as, 8 blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 15 pts, 6 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-21 FG/FGA W

Post season – 1970-71 – WCF playoffs

7. Date: Fri 04/09/71
- Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W

8. Date: Sun 04/11/71
- Chamberlain 26 pts, 22 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA - Wilt blocked numerious shots L
-Abdul-Jabbar 22 pts, 10 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W

9. Date: Wed 04/14/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 24 rebs, 3 as, 3 blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 19 rebs, 6 as, 0 blocks, 8-16 FG/FGA L

10.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 16 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-14 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 14-20 FG/FGA W

11.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 23 pts, 12 rebs, 4 as, 6 blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – 5 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 15 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 7-23 FG/FGA W

Regular season – 1971-72

12.Date: Sat 11/21/71
- Chamberlain 11 pts, 26 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 4-9 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 39 pts, 17 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA L

13.Date: Sun 01/09/72
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 12 rebs, 2 as, 6 blocks, 7-11 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 39 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, 9 blocks, 18-34 FG/FGA W

14.Date: Fri 02/04/72
- Chamberlain 18 pts, 25 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 8-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 40 pts, 18 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 16-33 FG/FGA L

15.Date: Wed 03/01/72
- Chamberlain 8 pts, 17 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 12 rebs, 8 as, * blocks, 13-33 FG/FGA L

16.Date: Fri 03/17/72
- Chamberlain 18 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 50 pts, 8 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 22-39 FG/FGA L

Post season – 1971-72 – WCF playoffs

17.Date: Sun 04/09/72
- Chamberlain 10 pts, 24 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 3-12 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 18 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 14-26 FG/FGA W

18.Date: Wed 04/12/72
- Chamberlain 11 pts, 17 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 40 pts, 7 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 18-31 FG/FGA L

19.Date: Fri 04/14/72
- Chamberlain 7 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, 10 blocks, 1-3 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar W
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 15-37 FG/FGA L

20.Date: Sun 04/16/72
- Chamberlain 5 pts, 11 rebs, 4 as, 3 blocks, 2-7 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 18 rebs, 3 as, 7 blocks, 14-33 FG/FGA W

21.Date: Tue 04/18/72
- Chamberlain 12 pts, 26 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 2-3 FG/FGA - 4 blocks against Jabbar W
-Abdul-Jabbar 28 pts, 16 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 13-33 FG/FGA L

22.Date: Sat 04/22/72
- Chamberlain 20 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, 9 blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 25 rebs, 8 as, * blocks, 16-37 FG/FGA L

Regular season – 1972-73

23.Date: Tue 11/14/72
- Chamberlain 16 pts, 15 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 6 as, 7 blocks, 17-32 FG/FGA L

24.Date: Tue 12/05/72
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 15 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 4-4 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 17 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 11-30 FG/FGA L

25.Date: Sun 01/07/73
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 18 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 12 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 17-36 FG/FGA W

26.Date: Fri 02/09/73
- Chamberlain 8 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 3-3 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 14-24 FG/FGA W

27.Date: Sun 02/25/73
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 20 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 10-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 21 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 10-27 FG/FGA L

28.Date: Tue 03/27/73
- Chamberlain 0 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 0-0 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 24 pts, 17 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 12-31 FG/FGA W

W = team wоn
L = team lost

* Blocked stats are collected from archive newspapers articles (as most of the data), NBA doesn't kept track of blocked shots before 1973/74 season. I have some blocked shots numbers ( for example if Wilt blocked 20 shots - 11 of Jabbar in two consecutive games in 1972 WCF - and if that were the game 5 and 6 - it will be like Wilt had 11 blocks (4 against Jabbar) in game 5 and 9 blocks (7 against Jabbar) in game 6. But since if I am not able to cross checked it I did not put that data. Also I find in the forum info about Wilt blocked 8 shots in game 1 of 1971/72 regular season, but I was not able to find evidence in google news archive search,so again I do not post it.

[Math2]

i'm not gonna pretend i watched every kareem vs. akeem match up. i didn't. but it's not a rocket science why kareem had a great success against akeem whenever akeem was guarding kareem.

What is it? That fact that Akeem had quicker speed at that point? Or is it his obvious stronger build?

A couple inches doesn't mean anything. Unless you are saying that height can make the difference in a matchup. Thanks for the info, I always wondered why most ranked Manute Bol above Kareem

Nice post jlauber....In the words of John Sununu, you're struggling milwad

[Owl]

Context for the stats in the post above, Wilt was seriously injured in the 69-70 season.
When he came back he completed his transition to a defense and rebounding focused played. Wilt had often changed roles throughout his career and even prior to that season had accepted a vastly decreased role on offense in LA the previous year taking just 13.6 shots a game third to West (19) and Baylor (21.5) per minute Wilt had taken less shots than all but one other Laker (Freddie Crawford). http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1969.html

This is not to detract from Jabbar who I have rated as 2-3 all time, but merely contextual info which should be borne in mind when comparing the two's statistical performances. In any case any attempt to damage the legacy of one is silly and counterproductive as it makes the their rivals accomplishments against them seem trivial.

[Linspired]

What is it? That fact that Akeem had quicker speed at that point? Or is it his obvious stronger build?

A couple inches doesn't mean anything. Unless you are saying that height can make the difference in a matchup. Thanks for the info, I always wondered why most ranked Manute Bol above Kareem

Nice post jlauber....In the words of John Sununu, you're struggling milwad

do you only see couple of inches there? do you only see couple of inches between shaq & ben wallace too?
kareem is taller than hakeem by 4 inches. imagine 6ft 8 dude guarding a 7ft dude. no matter how fast and quick 6ft 8 dude maybe, a legit 7ft dude who has 4 inches on a smaller defender will have easier time scoring.

i'm still not convinced akeem guarded kareem all 4 qtrs of basketball. if akeem ever did, he would have a trouble against kareem's legendary sky hook which he clearly perfected.

akeem was far away from being a dominant force at this stage of his career. i will not be surprised that kareem just owned inexperienced young stud in stretches because kareem was that good even in late 30's.

dwight howard is quicker and many times more athletic than Yao. but Yao owned dwight more often than not because of the height and skill advantage.

[SyRyanYang]

he's definitely better educated than most posters here

[dunksby]

Context for the stats in the post above, Wilt was seriously injured in the 69-70 season.
When he came back he completed his transition to a defense and rebounding focused played. Wilt had often changed roles throughout his career and even prior to that season had accepted a vastly decreased role on offense in LA the previous year taking just 13.6 shots a game third to West (19) and Baylor (21.5) per minute Wilt had taken less shots than all but one other Laker (Freddie Crawford). http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1969.html

This is not to detract from Jabbar who I have rated as 2-3 all time, but merely contextual info which should be borne in mind when comparing the two's statistical performances. In any case any attempt to damage the legacy of one is silly and counterproductive as it makes the their rivals accomplishments against them seem trivial.

jlauber always tells one side of the story so I decided to bring things into perspective.

[jlauber]

I don't have a lot of time right now, but there some excellent responses above.

In any case, here is the bottom line...

A 34 year old Wilt battled a statistically prime Kareem to a statistical draw in the entire 10 H2H games in the 70-71 season (including the playoffs.) This, a year after major knee surgery, and well past his prime.

Nate Thurmond outscored and outshot Kareem in the '72 playoffs, and held him to .428 in the '73 playoffs.

Dave Cowens outplayed Kareem in game seven of the '74 Finals.

Bob McAdoo in the mid-70's routinely outscored Kareem (and without taking the time to look it up, McAdoo mah have had a 41 point game against him.)

In my preliminary research, both Lanier and Gilmore pretty much battled Kareem to standstills in their H2H's.

And Moses pounded Kareem in the late 70's thru the early 80's.


And yet an OLD Kareem could just annihilate Hakeem and Ewing in the mid-80's.

And both Hakeem and Ewing would go on to be among the top-4 centers of the 90's. A Prime Hakeem actually battled a young Shaq to a draw in the '95 Finals.

And, think about this...Shaq's career high game against Hakeem, was 37 points. An OLD Kareem had THREE of 40 just against Hakeem.

And Shaq would go to dominate the late 90's and early 00's.

[Raz]

^Interesting points, I think something you've discovered that experience and guile trump inexperience and youthfulness.

That's why you would see an old Shaq beating up on Greg Oden or Dwight Howard. The same reason you see an old, creaky Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett play Dwight Howard to a standstill.

[Linspired]

I don't have a lot of time right now, but there some excellent responses above.

In any case, here is the bottom line...

A 34 year old Wilt battled a statistically prime Kareem to a statistical draw in the entire 10 H2H games in the 70-71 season (including the playoffs.) This, a year after major knee surgery, and well past his prime.

Nate Thurmond outscored and outshot Kareem in the '72 playoffs, and held him to .428 in the '73 playoffs.

Dave Cowens outplayed Kareem in game seven of the '74 Finals.

In my preliminary research, both Lanier and Gilmore pretty much battled Kareem to standstills in their H2H's.

And Moses pounded Kareem in the late 70's thru the early 80's.


And yet an OLD Kareem could just annihilate Hakeem and Ewing in the mid-80's.

And both Hakeem and Ewing would go on to be among the top-4 centers of the 90's. A Prime Hakeem actually battled a young Shaq to a draw in the '95 Finals.

And, think about this...Shaq's career high game against Hakeem, was 37 points. An OLD Kareem had THREE of 40 just against Hakeem.

And Shaq would go to dominate the late 90's and early 00's.

1. kareem was a still doing his thing in 80's. he still was a great offensive weapon up until 87 ish. high fg% is a good indication.
2. kareem played for a dominant team. why are you ignoring this?
3. ewing & hakeem was still young pups compared to kareem in mid 80's. kareem dropped 40 on ewing in 86. in 1986, ewing was far away from being a great center. ewing & hakeem came to their own in late 80's and became dominant early 90's to mid 90's. ewing's statistical jump happened in 1989.


go watch hakeem in 94 & 95 and watch young akeem. and tell me if they are same players. they aren't. and ewing became a dominant and complete center around 89. that was the first year he avg double digit reb.

[Math2]

do you only see couple of inches there?

Yes.

kareem is taller than hakeem by 4 inches.

My point exactly.

kareem is taller than hakeem by 4 inches. imagine 6ft 8 dude guarding a 7ft dude. no matter how fast and quick 6ft 8 dude maybe, a legit 7ft dude who has 4 inches on a smaller defender will have easier time scoring.

You mean that Darrell Imhoff had an easier time scoring on Russell than Wilt? Height doesn't mean everything.