Was Bird the worst defender to ever be on the All NBA Defensive team?

[Greg Oden 50]

LEBRON IS

[chips93]

Bigger guards do go at him. Deron always plays him well. And I still remember Billups taking it to him in the playoffs where NO got done by 40 something points.

yeah, thats fair enough. i got mixed up and was thinking about cp3 today, and not the past defensive selections he got

[get these NETS]

Sounds eerily similar to another player I know...

highlight reel of Bird making key steals in playoffs is about 10-15 plays long......though

pippen, a legit all defensive selection at same position made that many key steals each regular season year....and each playoff run

legit great defenders make 15 of those plays per year and about that many per playoff run

Bird was a Superstar player, but reporters and fans hate to acknowledge that he wasn't a good defender

in fact , never heard the terms "man defender/help defender" until Bird's name came up on hoops shows..

You're either a good defensive player or you aren't.


dennis johnson, who was NO decathlete, was a great defender on those Celtics teams....instead of people just saying that Bird wasn't a good defender..they make excuses or harp on him being a good "help' defender

I call BS....

[fpliii]

highlight reel of Bird making key steals in playoffs is about 10-15 plays long......though

pippen, a legit all defensive selection at same position made that many key steals each regular season year....and each playoff run

legit great defenders make 15 of those plays per year and about that many per playoff run

Bird was a Superstar player, but reporters and fans hate to acknowledge that he wasn't a good defender

in fact , never heard the terms "man defender/help defender" until Bird's name came up on hoops shows..

You're either a good defensive player or you aren't.


dennis johnson, who was NO decathlete, was a great defender on those Celtics teams....instead of people just saying that Bird wasn't a good defender..they make excuses or harp on him being a good "help' defender

I call BS....

Are you serious?

[Thorpesaurous]

Shaq made a few and he was downright bad defensively in a few aspects for his entire career. Just an awfull PnR defender even when he was in shape. He had a few years where his rebounding and shot blocking were excellent thought, although even then not usually on the specialist level.

And Karl Malone made a bunch. I watched a ton of Karl Malone, and I just don't get that at all. He was a decent on ball guy, but beyond that not much. I'd take Bird as a defender over him all the time.

And there's a pretty good list of guys who made it primarily as help guys. Charles Oakley, and other guys like him, who are usually underrated defenders, right up until the moment someone decides their not.

I've always felt Yao Ming was a wildly underrated defender because his size prevented a lot of shots, but didn't get him much in the way of blocks.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great joke, ignorant child If anything Bird should have more selections and some 1st team. Hype wasn't the thing back then, having a name and all as the best in the league, and there were guys with established reputations, players that played amazing D, making it in a forward spot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s

Celtics went from one of the worst defensive teams to one of the best when he joined, with the same squad, he was 1st in DWS and 6th in DRtg.

He led the league in DWS 4x, top5 7x
2nd in DRtg in 1984, top10 6x

Led 3x in DWS in the playoffs, 7x in the top5
Led 2x in DRtg in the PS, 5x in the top5

Other forwards who can make such claims are Duncan, KG or Pippen, few more if any, and when he was healthy it was on the regular not once or twice.

Celtics always one of the best defensive teams in the league, if not the best, while he did it.

ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAMS USING DEFENSIVE WIN SHARES (5-year period):

2005-2010 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Dwight Howard (31.4) / Marcus Camby (22.7)
F - Tim Duncan (29.5) / Kevin Garnett (25.0)
F - LeBron James (26.2) / Shawn Marion (21.1)
G - Kobe Bryant (18.3) / Manu Ginobili (17.9)
G - Jason Kidd (21.5) / Dwyane Wade (17.5)

2000-2005 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Ben Wallace (36.9) / Jermaine O'Neal (22.9)
F - Tim Duncan (34.1) / Kenyon Martin (20.8)
F - Kevin Garnett (29.5) / Shawn Marion (26.2)
G - Allen Iverson (18.9) / Eddie Jones (17.9)
G - Jason Kidd (25.6) / Doug Christie (16.9)

1995-2000 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Dikembe Mutombo (25.3) / Alonzo Mourning (24.2)
F - Shawn Kemp (23.3) / Grant Hill (22.0)
F - Karl Malone (22.6) / Scottie Pippen (20.3)
G - Gary Payton (18.9) / Michael Jordan (16.6)
G - Mookie Blaylock (17.4) / Eddie Jones (16.8)

1990-1995 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Patrick Ewing (35.1) / David Robinson (34.3)
F - Karl Malone (27.6) / Charles Oakley (22.3)
F - Scottie Pippen (28.5) / Dennis Rodman (25.0)
G - Mookie Blaylock (18.1) / Clyde Drexler (17.9)
G - John Stockton (20.6) / Michael Jordan (17.4)

1985-1990 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Hakeem Olajuwon (33.1) / Mark Eaton (25.5)
F - Karl Malone (27.5) / Charles Barkley (20.1)
F - Terry Cummings (20.5) / Larry Bird (19.1)
G - Michael Jordan (21.0) / Clyde Drexler (18.9)
G - John Stockton (21.0) / Fat Lever (20.6)

1980-1985 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Jack Sikma (24.0) / Robert Parish (23.4)
F - Larry Bird (28.2) / Greg Ballard (21.6)
F - Julius Erving (22.4) / Buck Williams (20.1)
G - Sidney Moncrief (19.1) / Michael Ray Richardson (18.0)
G - Maurice Cheeks (18.6) / Dennis Johnson (18.0)

1975-1980 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (28.4) / Sam Lacey (21.4)
F - Elvin Hayes (25.3) / Truck Robinson (18.3)
F - George McGinnis (21.1) / Julius Erving (17.5)
G - Paul Westphal (13.9) / Don Buse (12.4)
G - Gus Williams (16.3) / Dennis Johnson (13.4)

1970-1975 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Dave Cowens (34.4) / Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (32.5)
F - Elvin Hayes (35.6) / Paul Silas (25.8)
F - John Havlicek (27.2) / Dave DeBusschere (21.8)
G - Jerry Sloan (23.8) / Jo Jo White (21.7)
G - Walt Frazier (25.2) / Norm Van Lier (22.0)

1965-1970 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Bill Russell (38.3) / Wilt Chamberlain (32.5)
F - Dave Debusschere (19.7) / Bailey Howell (17.5)
F - John Havlicek (23.7) / Billy Cunningham (18.6)
G - Jeff Mullins (13.3) / Sam Jones (13.2)
G - Hal Greer (17.3) / Jerry Sloan (12.8)

1960-1965 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Bill Russell (65.9) / Wilt Chamberlain (33.5)
F - Tom Heinsohn (24.7) / Bob Pettit (21.6)
F - Tom Sanders (23.7) / Red Kerr (16.3)
G - Sam Jones (24.2) / Guy Rodgers (19.6)
G - K.C. Jones (25.4) / Bob Cousy (17.0)

1955-1960 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Bill Russell (29.4) / Maurice Stokes (17.7)
F - Bob Pettit (18.0) / Red Kerr (15.6)
F - Dolph Schayes (19.5) / Tom Heinsohn (17.0)
G - Tom Gola (14.7) / Frank Ramsey (11.8)
G - Bob Cousy (23.3) / Bill Sharman (13.6)

Only forwards to lead for 5-years are Larry Bird and Elvin Hayes, but Elvin was a PF/C while Bird was a PF/SF.


Just a coincidence I guess, right?

If it was someone doing that type of stuff today, like Lebron or something, people would just drool over it while calling him DPOY.

Look at how Larry impacts a game defensively: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI

\thread please

[97 bulls]

highlight reel of Bird making key steals in playoffs is about 10-15 plays long......though

pippen, a legit all defensive selection at same position made that many key steals each regular season year....and each playoff run

legit great defenders make 15 of those plays per year and about that many per playoff run

Bird was a Superstar player, but reporters and fans hate to acknowledge that he wasn't a good defender

in fact , never heard the terms "man defender/help defender" until Bird's name came up on hoops shows..

You're either a good defensive player or you aren't.


dennis johnson, who was NO decathlete, was a great defender on those Celtics teams....instead of people just saying that Bird wasn't a good defender..they make excuses or harp on him being a good "help' defender

I call BS....

It's most definitely BS. Just the fact that Bird always drew the opposition's worst scoring forward and Mchale took the better one regardless of position.

Ive never checked. But if Larry Bird was really the second best or top 4 defensive forwards of the early 80s then thats doesn't say much for defense at that time

[secund2nun]

Kobe got a couple more based on reputation alone...

He got 2 finals MVP and 1 regular season MVP off of hype as well.

[SHAQisGOAT]

It's most definitely BS. Just the fact that Bird always drew the opposition's worst scoring forward and Mchale took the better one regardless of position.

Ive never checked. But if Larry Bird was really the second best or top 4 defensive forwards of the early 80s then thats doesn't say much for defense at that time

You don't even know what you're talking about, along with that other dude who you replied to(remember him saying DJ was an average athlete or something lol, must think he only played for the Celtics and only in the late 80s).

That only started to happen on the regular when Bird started to have back problems, and McHale only entered the starting lineup in 1986 also. Plus Bird was projected as a PF and more built to it, different type of PF but a PF, especially on D. Him guarding SFs and playing the wing much more was what he had to "give up" for McHale to enter the starting lineup.
Furthermore Bird's energy was needed for offense because he's one of the best at it, and on defense it was more for his amazing help D. How about Battier saving up Lebron, Pip or Harper for Jordan, so on and so on.. Let's dismiss them too for not always guarding the best player.

Yea by saying that you're just dismissing players like Michael Cooper, Sidney Moncrief, Bobby Jones, Paul Pressey, Dan Roundfield, Rodney McCray, even Jordan, Rodman or Pippen, not even going into centers. Stop being dumb.

[get these NETS]

all defensive player slots are to be reserved for players who offenses would tend to route their plays AWAY from......pg sees where player x is..and tends to run play AWAY from the man he is guarding..just smart basketball



same way shaqisgoat is routing his arguments away from me.....swallowing his pride and being smart

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bird is actually an underrated defender. He can defend PFs quite well.

[SHAQisGOAT]

all defensive player slots are to be reserved for players who offenses would tend to route their plays AWAY from......pg sees where player x is..and tends to run play AWAY from the man he is guarding..just smart basketball



same way shaqisgoat is routing his arguments away from me.....swallowing his pride and being smart

Facts are there son, and they claim that Bird was a great defensive player, read my first post on this thread pls.

And from the eye-test (I actually watched lots of Bird's games, and was alive while he was at his best) I can confirm that Bird was one of the greatest team defenders ever, he was a good post-defender and could hold his own on the perimeter, people who know basketball and have seen enough from Bird know it. Plenty of his impact and reason why his teams always got better with him, was because of his defensive impact, and again the facts are there.

[get these NETS]

@shaqisgoat

Since title of the thread is about whether or not Bird is the worst defender ever named on all nba defensive team..let's look at the list of players selected to the ALL NBA team, not some offshoot list,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Defensive_Team


there are several names on the list that I'm not familiar with pre-1980 but allow me to assume that some of the more obscure names are of guys who were primarily known for being defenders (and that's how they stayed in the league)

Pre- MJ...outside of your superstar centers...it was rare for a player to be thought of as a stellar two way player. Walt Frazier being the most clear exception.....so I'm going to assume that the names on the all nba team that I don't recognize are your defensive specialist type of guys....earlier versions of Cooper/Bowen or Rodman/Wallace types .


Now....Bird as a defender is being judged/rated against the other players on the list..whether by position or not. No offshoot list..no derivation using other stats..just the list of players selected to all nba defense.

Who would YOU say is a worse defensive player than Larry Bird? and specifically which forwards?

[Bigsmoke]

Shaq made a few and he was downright bad defensively in a few aspects for his entire career. Just an awfull PnR defender even when he was in shape. He had a few years where his rebounding and shot blocking were excellent thought, although even then not usually on the specialist level.

And Karl Malone made a bunch. I watched a ton of Karl Malone, and I just don't get that at all. He was a decent on ball guy, but beyond that not much. I'd take Bird as a defender over him all the time.

And there's a pretty good list of guys who made it primarily as help guys. Charles Oakley, and other guys like him, who are usually underrated defenders, right up until the moment someone decides their not.

I've always felt Yao Ming was a wildly underrated defender because his size prevented a lot of shots, but didn't get him much in the way of blocks.

Shaq D was at least game changing. He was a great shot blocker and and his presents were felt on defense from just how big, strong, and athlete he was alone.

[TheBigVeto]

That would be Kobe.