Tim Duncan, Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis (PF's) Don't Play Like This

[SHAQisGOAT]

That's what made Larry Bird so special...

Dude could shoot it from anywhere in any way, was a major post-up threat, could playmake from just about everywhere, threw passes with the best PG's, knew how to handle the rock, could rebound with the best centers, played great team D, could guard the post pretty well and more than held his own on the perimeter...

His athleticism is underrated as he was a nice athlete before serious injuries but he lacked the lateral quickness to play point (like Magic) and even to be a good m2m perimeter defender (like Bobby Jones, for example); yet you also gotta remember you're looking at a 6'9'', 220+ lbs player, that's asking too much already, how many players of his size you also see/saw playing point and lockdown perimeter D? Plus, he already did considerably more than the vast majority.

Fact is that Bird played C/PF in college while dominating, and was projected as a PF (terrific all-around and versatile one though), he played plenty at the 4 in the pros and was terrific at it, spent his best years as mostly a SF and displayed a top5 GOAT peak, even played plenty of point-forward mostly in his later years as a shell... I'd even say he took it to the post more (and was better at it) in his days listed as a SF.
He dominated in numerous ways, could do it big in different styles, strategies, positions...

What about players at PF like Dray Green, Dirk, Millsap, Love... ? And I'm not comparing their games to Bird's or saying they can do the same things, but still...

You see more small-ball nowadays than in the 80's, Bird would KILL IT in the post in this league while also doing his thing from the perimeter, and on defense he was better at guarding the post while roaming around.
Even Larry himself said he would probably play more at the 4 nowadays, because of size.
Doesn't mean he wouldn't be doing the things you've posted, or playing a lot at/like a SF...

Great gifs btw. Bird

I'll say one thing though... No (stereotypical) position can define Bird's play and what he was able to do on the court.

[Papaya Petee]

Everybody knows this already. That's why Larry Bird is considered one of the GOAT All-Around players. His catch and shoot, come off the screens ability and shooting skills gave him the skillset to be a Shooting Guard. His great footwork, size and post game gave him the skillset to be a PF. His passing ability gave him the skillset to run occasional point-guard\playmaking duties.

Pretty much similar to LeBron, who is a SF by position, but can play any position.

[Prometheus]

He would be able to play either the 3 or the 4, but would be more of a matchup nightmare at the 4... and it's more likely that he would find himself on a team with a 3 who could shoot than a 4 who could shoot... and Bird would be the focal point of his offense, so... it would probably be more beneficial to put him at the 4.

[3ball]

and it's more likely that he would find himself on a team with a 3 who could shoot than a 4 who could shoot...

How is this any different from the 80's??... It's laughable that a 3-and-D robot from today's game could prevent Bird from starting at the 3... You just don't realize the playmaker Bird was... It's as if his 6.5 assist average means NOTHING...

Lebron's 6.3 playoff average means he's an elite, all-time passer, but Bird's 6.5 means NOTHNG - and you know why?... it's all because when we think of great passing in our minds, we think of a point-guard style player, dribbling a lot and making passes.

Also, you have no clue about Bird's scoring ability - you clearly think he just shot jump shots - you don't realize how great a creator and playmaker he was on the perimeter.
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[Smoke117]

Shut up, 3ball.

[3ball]

Bird would be able to play either the 3 or the 4, but would be more of a matchup nightmare at the 4.

If Bird is a bigger mismatch against PF's, then why didn't Bird play PF in the 80's?

If he had played PF back then, he could have avoided Pippen, Rodman, Michael Cooper, Dr. J, Worthy, Dominique and company... But he didn't play PF back then - so why would it be any better for him to play PF today?

and Bird would be the focal point of his offense, so... it would probably be more beneficial to put him at the 4.

But Bird doesn't play like a PF - he doesn't play like Duncan, Aldridge, Davis, Blake Griffin, or Zach Randolph, so you can't make Bird the focal point in the same way you would these guys, and it would be dumb to try.

That's the point of the OP - to demonstrate how much differently Bird played from the PF's we have today (or in any era).

[finchyyy]

If Bird is a bigger mismatch against PF's, then why didn't Bird play PF in the 80's?

If he had played PF back then, he could have avoided Pippen, Rodman, Michael Cooper, Dr. J, Worthy, Dominique and company... But he didn't play PF back then - so why would it be any better for him to play PF today?



But Bird doesn't play like a PF - he doesn't play like Duncan, Aldridge, Davis, Blake Griffin, or Zach Randolph, so you can't make Bird the focal point in the same way you would these guys, and it would be dumb to try.

That's the point of the OP - to demonstrate how much differently Bird played from the PF's we have today (or in any era).

Bird did play as a PF in the 80s though, he played there until McHale started which was around the 85 season. Maxwell was the SF, Bird the PF and McHale the 6th man.

[bizil]

That's what made Larry Bird so special...

Dude could shoot it from anywhere in any way, was a major post-up threat, could playmake from just about everywhere, threw passes with the best PG's, knew how to handle the rock, could rebound with the best centers, played great team D, could guard the post pretty well and more than held his own on the perimeter...

His athleticism is underrated as he was a nice athlete before serious injuries but he lacked the lateral quickness to play point (like Magic) and even to be a good m2m perimeter defender (like Bobby Jones, for example); yet you also gotta remember you're looking at a 6'9'', 220+ lbs player, that's asking too much already, how many players of his size you also see/saw playing point and lockdown perimeter D? Plus, he already did considerably more than the vast majority.

Fact is that Bird played C/PF in college while dominating, and was projected as a PF (terrific all-around and versatile one though), he played plenty at the 4 in the pros and was terrific at it, spent his best years as mostly a SF and displayed a top5 GOAT peak, even played plenty of point-forward mostly in his later years as a shell... I'd even say he took it to the post more (and was better at it) in his days listed as a SF.
He dominated in numerous ways, could do it big in different styles, strategies, positions...

What about players at PF like Dray Green, Dirk, Millsap, Love... ? And I'm not comparing their games to Bird's or saying they can do the same things, but still...

You see more small-ball nowadays than in the 80's, Bird would KILL IT in the post in this league while also doing his thing from the perimeter, and on defense he was better at guarding the post while roaming around.
Even Larry himself said he would probably play more at the 4 nowadays, because of size.
Doesn't mean he wouldn't be doing the things you've posted, or playing a lot at/like a SF...

Great gifs btw. Bird

I'll say one thing though... No (stereotypical) position can define Bird's play and what he was able to do on the court.

Well said! Bird at SF or PF is a GOAT at either spot. Since today's game is different, some teams may prefer him at PF. I think defensively, he's better as a PF. On the other hand, I love the mismatch Bird creates at SF. He is gonna be taller AND stronger than damn near any SF. Plus he is gonna be more skilled too. At PF, he's still gonna be the most skilled of course too, but he can't overpower as many PF's.. But at SF, Bird can OVERPOWER and OUTSKILL everybody. I think Bird is the definitive forward who can LEGIT dominate either forward position.

[3ball]

Bird did play as a PF in the 80s though, he played there until McHale started which was around the 85 season. Maxwell was the SF, Bird the PF and McHale the 6th man.

It's common knowledge that Bird played PF a small percentage of the time - but he's a HOF small forward, and he played SF most of his career, even in his later years when he slowed down.

So I'm not sure why you would bring that up... The point remains - if Bird is truly a bigger mismatch against PF's, then why did Bird play SF most of his career?

If he had played PF back then, he could have avoided Pippen, Rodman, Michael Cooper, Dr. J, Worthy, Dominique and company... But he didn't play PF back then, and instead destroyed all those guys at his natural position of SF - so why would it be any better for him to play PF today?

Bird isn't a power forward - he doesn't play like Duncan, Aldridge, Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, or Zach Randolph... He runs off screens like Reggie Miller, and playmakes on the perimeter to average 6.5 assists per game.

And Bird's assist average is the starting point for people's misperception of his game - they completely ignore his assist average because it didn't come in a point-guard-style fashion with a lot of dribbling, and that's the only capacity most people can envision a good passer.

But it's not necessary to have a live, existing dribble (like a point guard) to playmake - Bird playmaked on the perimeter from the triple-threat position (pre-dribble, stationary position) and while playing off-ball.

The playmaking Bird did on the perimeter, his shooting style and form, running off screens like Reggie Miller, and the moves he made for pull-up jumpers - only wings play like this - PF's like Duncan, Blake and the like simply don't play like that, so it doesn't make sense to fit Bird's game in with theirs... Bird naturally plays like a wing player... PF's like Duncan, Davis, Blake Griffin and the like don't play anything like Bird.
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[Prometheus]

Of course I know Bird is an all-time elite passer. I'm not going to lie and say that I was watching basketball when he was in his prime, but I still enjoy studying the history of the game, and have watched enough footage of Larry Bird to have a sense of his game... and EVERYONE knows Bird was one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) non-guard passer(s) of all time. Everyone knows that - and nothing I said should have made you believe that I didn't know it. You just decided that I didn't know it.

And of course I know he was more than a jump shooter. Are you kidding me? Literally nothing about my post suggests that I didn't know either of those two things. Bird is arguably the most skilled offensive player of all time.

My point is that in today's league, with the emphasis on spacing and the popularization of the stretch-four, it is more likely that coaches would want to put him at the power forward position. He is an elite outside shooter, and could potentially pull rim protectors at the four position out of the paint. Also I believe that his ability to play on the perimeter would create more matchup nightmares at the four than his ability to play in the post would create at the three.

He would be murder either way.

[Micku]

It's common knowledge that Bird played PF a small percentage of the time - but he's a HOF small forward, and he played SF most of his career, even in his later years when he slowed down.

Well, they were just called forwards. He was a 4 because of his post play. But he was versatile enough to switch it up. His off the ball movement was stellar even as a rookie. He could run off screens or get into position in the post. He changed later to SF when Mchale started to shine. Sometimes they would change mid game to Bird to the 4 and someone else to the 3.

So I'm not sure why you would bring that up... The point remains - if Bird is truly a bigger mismatch against PF's, then why did Bird play SF most of his career?

Cuz of Mchale. Mchale was a beast. Even then, Bird would play the 4 when Mchale was out and he was in. Wedman would play the 3. Sometimes Bird would play the 2. Bird played the 4 until 1985. Bird mentioned how he was a mismatch in a interview. If he his opponent was big, he would come off screens or beat him off the dribble. If the his opponent was small, then he would post him up. PFs and SFs took turns guarding him at times. Even some guards like SG like Cooper or Jordan in some instances.

If he had played PF back then, he could have avoided Pippen, Rodman, Michael Cooper, Dr. J, Worthy, Dominique and company... But he didn't play PF back then, and instead destroyed all those guys at his natural position of SF - so why would it be any better for him to play PF today?

I don't get what you mean with all of those names. James Worthy played 4 early in his career. Cooper and Rodman were versatile defenders. The Bulls didn't always use Pippen against Bird. In the early 90s they used Grant, and I think Bird was playing the 4 then too. And sometimes he didn't even guard those guys. Mchale would guard SFs and Bird would guard the 4 or the weakest offensive player for the rebound or to room around for help defense.

He would be awesome to play PF today because he is like the ultimate stretch 4. Not only is he very good in the post, but he is agile enough to run off of screens to shoot a jumper. He is also a better post defender than a man on man defender. And playing the 4 would give him better chances to get rebounds since he was a great at it. But he is also versatile enough to switch up to a 3.

Bird isn't a power forward - he doesn't play like Duncan, Aldridge, Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, or Zach Randolph... He runs off screens like Reggie Miller, and playmakes on the perimeter to average 6.5 assists per game.

Hahah! You don't have to play like them to be considered a 4 like LBJ is considered a 3 even though he controls the ball more than the point guard. Rashard Lewis didn't play like those guys and Rasheed Wallace didn't either. Bird was more versatile than the 4s that you mentioned. If you saw the 1984 finals, Bird changed up how he played. His jumper wasn't going down, so most of his buckets were post ups and put backs. Like a 4. Hell, James Worthy played a 4 yet ppl remember him as a 3. Even in 1987 when the games were close, he played 4.

Like in 1981 when they faced the 76ers, you would see a bunch of ppl guarding Bird. Bobby Jones (PF), Dr. J (SF), Darryl Dawkins (C, tho rarely) trying to slow him down. Bird would change his style up to post up to shooting from one possessions to another. On the defensive end, the dude would box out Dawkins to get the rebound. Sometimes Maxwell would play the 4 or the 3 depending on the situation.

Bird was not strictly a wing player. He was unique in terms that he could play multiple positions pretty well. Even when the Celtics had Maxwell and Bird in the same lineup, Bird would change it up. He would sometimes get into the post or be moving around the perimeter along with Maxwell. Even MJ said one time he wasn't sure if Bird was a SF or a PF. This was his quote when in the "When the Game was Ours" book:

People ask me all the time who my all-time five top players are, and when I start saying Larry, they interrupt me. They say, 'You've got to be kidding me. He can't play with Lebron James!' I tell them, 'You guys don't get it. Larry is far better than any small forward who played the game, and to be honest, I'm still not sure if he is a small forward or a power forward.

His peak/prime was played as a SF like Duncan peak/prime was a PF, but Duncan can play C very well as well which might be why ppl remember them as SF and PF respectively. But they were just awesome enough to play both well.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Dirk runs off screens routinely. He even goes coast to coast with pull up 3s. Not every "4" has to play the same style.

[3ball]

He is an elite outside shooter, and could potentially pull rim protectors at the four position out of the paint.

Coaches would want Bird to floor-spread in today's game, but that would come at BOTH forward positions.... he wouldn't only be spreading the floor as a PF... he'd do it just as much, if not more as a SF, just like he did in the 80's.

and in the 80's, there were more rim protectors at PF than today - accordingly, the motivation to play Bird at PF to draw bigs out of the paint is no greater now than back then.

For me, I can't watch his game and think he's a PF... he just doesn't play like one... He plays like a wing - his shooting style and form, running off screens like Reggie Miller, and the moves he made for pull-up jumpers - all wing-stuff that big men don't do.

Also I believe that his ability to play on the perimeter would create more matchup nightmares at the four than his ability to play in the post would create at the three.

That's the thing that bothers me - there's this notion that Bird ONLY posted up Pippen, Dominique, Rodman and other SF's back in the day.

But he attacked the rim from the perimeter against them as a STANDARD... it was standard for him and a big part of his game.

Catch-and-go and triple-threat ARE ways to attack from the perimeter - Bird got at least half his point this way, and he did it expertly against all these SF's.
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[navy]

What the fvck is 3ball arguing.

[andgar923]

Not sure what the OP is trying to do (Im just as confused as everybody else) but Bird is the only player that has a legit argument at being better.