Who's the best back-against-the-wall, odds stacked against him player in NBA History?

[BigKAT]

Hakeem Or Lebron.

A toss up.

That 95 Clutch City team was awesome.

[LostCause]

Because his supporting casts have statistically been some off the worst in NBA Finals History

Your graphic proves that although its obvious you want it to be, the blame isn't solely on Lebrons teammates. That graphic shows 2011 as having his best teammates, with Dirks mavs being far down the list. Yet they still lost in 6 games to Dirks team

No matter how you look at it, this graphic ultimately hurts your argument. If Dirk can do it in less than 7 games against far superior teams, Bron should be able to as well, no? I can re-phrase all this in simpler terms if for some reason you're having trouble

Yes, look how successful those "major talents" were on the Heat/Cavs were once LeBron left

The Heat made the Eastern Conference semifinals last season. Same as the Bulls without Jordan.

Unless you're referring to the immediate season post-lebron, which we both know had plenty of key players leaving or injured instead of just dealing with Lebrons departure, like the Bulls

Jordan leaves the Bulls in 1993, and Pippen suddenly becomes an MVP candidate and the Bulls win the same amount of games without Jordan as with. Seems like Jordan limited his Bulls

That makes sense, because the Bulls lost in the Semifinals that season whereas when Jordan was there they won 3 rings in a row. "Limited" doesn't mean what you think it means, apparently

The roster was also much deeper the year Jordan left. Kukoc, Kerr and Wennington were added and big contributors from the moment they came (Kukoc especially, was stellar) through their championship years

Obviously you have no response to the facts I listed, so I don't expect a knowledgeable response from you.

There's a difference between facts and half truths. When you learn that, maybe YOU'LL be able to come off as knowledgable yourself

As for the topic, it's very specific to suck off Lebron but the reality is he's come up short quite a lot as well, with his "back against the wall". He didn't do much fighting back when the odds were stacked against him in 07 or when the inferior team in 11 went up 3-2 on Miami, for example. Unless you think Game 7's are the only times players have their backs against the wall, and being swept or about to lose a series in 6 doesn't count

[Annyong!]

Hakeem had no business winning two titles with those teams. Bron sure couldn't have done it.

Very true.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt...

In 23 career "must win" games...

31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons in which the NBA shot about .435 in that span.)

And how about "elimination games"...

Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds, and 12 blocks. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds, and 10 blocks. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games

[Mr Feeny]

It's definitely not Kobe who's a 21 ppg 39% elimination games player

I day LeTHICK!

[poido123]

LeDagger James. He's also the only top 12 player of all time to have the refs against him. Imagine if refs were on his side.

Why would the best player in the game and highest paid player in the game have the refs against him?






The word stupid doesn't do enough here.

[GimmeThat]

players with multiple rings. because you need to win early on in order to be in contention for multiple rings.

which means you're winning at a time before what the normal and average should

[jrong]

Because his supporting casts have statistically been some off the worst in NBA Finals History


Its simple



Out of 7 Finals Appearances, LeBrons teams were only good enough to have HCA 2 times

LeBron wasn't the Heat's best player in 2011.

In other news, when did this board get this ridiculous? You always had to deal with fanboys and trolls, but intelligent basketball discussion did happen here once, as I recall.

Now just about every time I check the home page, about 80 - 90 percent of the threads are fanboy or troll threads.

This is not an inevitable fact of life on the Internet. There are forums where discussions are very well-regulated.

[RRR3]

LeBron wasn't the Heat's best player in 2011.

In other news, when did this board get this ridiculous? You always had to deal with fanboys and trolls, but intelligent basketball discussion did happen here once, as I recall.

Now just about every time I check the home page, about 80 - 90 percent of the threads are fanboy or troll threads.

This is not an inevitable fact of life on the Internet. There are forums where discussions are very well-regulated.

LeBron was most definitely the Heat's best player in 2011, that's why his 2011 finals debacle is so notorious.

[Nash]

Maybe LeBron's style of play relegated major talents into more limited roles, thus less production? More than food for thought as well.

or maybe, lebron is so good and versatile that instead of having Love or Bosh taking midrange shots, you let Lebron take more shots and keep them on spreading the floor.

[jrong]

LeBron was most definitely the Heat's best player in 2011, that's why his 2011 finals debacle is so notorious.

No, he wasn't. First, that Finals has to factor significantly in his overall player evaluation for the year.

Second, Wade outscored him in the playoffs overall and outscored him in more games that both played in the regular season. His overall per 36 numbers were also better.

And please don't reference the advanced stats above or others. I used to defend metrics against people who said "just watch the games," but I'm now convinced those people were right all along, and the people who invented advanced stats don't understand the game (or even their own metrics).

[SouBeachTalents]

No, he wasn't. First, that Finals has to factor significantly in his overall player evaluation for the year.

Second, Wade outscored him in the playoffs overall and outscored him in more games that both played in the regular season. His overall per 36 numbers were also better.

And please don't reference the advanced stats above or others. I used to defend metrics against people who said "just watch the games," but I'm now convinced those people were right all along, and the people who invented advanced stats don't understand the game (or even their own metrics).

In the regular season they were both great, top 5 players in the league but LeBron was better imo, the numbers back that up. Postseason is much closer, and I could see arguments for either player. Either way, to act like one player was definitely better than the other that season is absurd

[RRR3]

No, he wasn't. First, that Finals has to factor significantly in his overall player evaluation for the year.

Second, Wade outscored him in the playoffs overall and outscored him in more games that both played in the regular season. His overall per 36 numbers were also better.

And please don't reference the advanced stats above or others. I used to defend metrics against people who said "just watch the games," but I'm now convinced those people were right all along, and the people who invented advanced stats don't understand the game (or even their own metrics).

Wade has better playoff stats because LeBron shat the bed in the finals

No one considered Wade the better player, or else he would have gotten blamed for stuff occasionally. And I like Wade. I'm just saying.

[JebronLames]

Why would the best player in the game and highest paid player in the game have the refs against him?






The word stupid doesn't do enough here.

Do you watch the NBA playoffs? Aside from 2012 Celtics and thunder series, refs have been against LeBron in every playoff series over the past 5 years.