How come Wilt fans have to write novels to make a convincing argument?

[Bankaii]

How about these numbers in 10 game 7s?

18.6 PPG, 29.3 RPG

And he was 10-0 in those games. Both numbers noticeably above his career averages. And those game 7s occurred in 9 different seasons, meaning if he loses all of them, he has 2 rings versus 11.

Russell has 13 titles (2 NCAA and 11 NBA) in a 15 year span. He is without a doubt the greatest winner in North American team sport history. All this winning wasn't coincidence. It was him that made his teams win. Before he went to the Univ of SF, they were NOTHING. Ditto for the Celtics who didn't win squat before he got there. You play to win the game and he did that better than anyone.

He also wasn't just a role player. He has 5 regular season MVP and if they had given out FMVP during his era, he would have 7-9.

So:

11 rings
5 mvp
7-9 fmvp

Clutch as hell, the ultimate winner.

I like how you're talking as if you watched more than YouTube highlights.
Is 18/29 supposed to be impressive? Why you convienently leave off FG%? Abs if you account for pace and competition those numbers aren't really anything special.

Posting TEAM accomplishments doesn't shows INDIVIDUAL clutchness. Especially when he had by far the most stacked team in league and didn't even lead his team for a good portion of those Finals.

Never said he wasn't a winner or a top 10 GOAT, but he gets drastically overrated. He's the only top 11 GOAT that's wasn't elite offensively.

[Bankaii]

I've shown multiple times that half the times, Wilt's productivity increased in the playoffs compared to his regular season productivity against the same opponents. Hence, so much for the "choker" label, he was just fine, playoffs or not.
No, bigger stage does not necessarily = "better competition". For Wilt/Russell, the real test was when they clashed against each other, usually in the conference Finals, not when Russell was facing freakin' LeRoy Ellis in the Finals.

When competition gets better, most players' production decreases, regardless of their level, not just Wilt's, except maybe certain players who tend to coast in the r.s. Jordan's production decreased vs the Pistons. Shaq's production decreased vs the Spurs. Kareem's production decreased vs Thurmond/Wilt. And Wilt's production decreased vs Russell/Thurmond. It's not quantum physics.

Please explain to in what league does the level of competition not increase in the postseason as compared to the regular season?

It's no coincidence that Wilt averaged 30 in the RS to 22 in the PO to 18 in the Finals. Hint: It's called getting exposed against better competition.


If you've proven it so many times it should be easy to explain why his scoring decreased every higher level.

The Celtics with Russell were so much better defensively than any other team in the league that there's not any real analogy to them, before of since.
Their offense was constantly among the least efficient in the league and it still didn't matter, it still provided them (usually) with the best record in the league. There isn't anyone else you can attribute this to than Russell. Cousy wasn't considered a good defender, KC Jones was pretty good, but a guard who wasn't even getting big minutes, Havlicek was also good, but the Celtics were equally dominant before him, Sam Jones was OK, but not special, Heinsohn was "below OK". There's no reason to believe that by replacing Russell with an average defensive center, the Celtics would be above just "OK" defensively. I can't find anything than compares, even before or during Russell's era, so, I'll say that's good evidence that Russell's defensive impact is unmatched - and I don't care what types of excuses someone may find for this.

This is 100% opinion.
I asked fir undeniable proof that Russell is by far the GOAT defender.

[LAZERUSS]

Please explain to in what league does the level of competition not increase in the postseason as compared to the regular season?

It's no coincidence that Wilt averaged 30 in the RS to 22 in the PO to 18 in the Finals. Hint: It's called getting exposed against better competition.


If you've proven it so many times it should be easy to explain why his scoring decreased every higher level.


This is 100% opinion.
I asked fir undeniable proof that Russell is by far the GOAT defender.

Interesting...

A 39 year old KAJ ROUTINELY dumped 40+ point games on a prime Hakeem, with a high of 46 points, and in only 37 minutes... and all on .630+ FG%'s. A 40 year old Kareem outscored him, and outshot him by a .567 to .403 margin in his 4 H2H's that season.

A PEAK Shaq, put up his career high against a fading Hakeem in the '99 playoffs... of 37 points.

Now, a PEAK Kareem faced a fading Nate Thurmond in some 35 career H2H's. His HIGH game against him was 34 points (and only five total BTW...one less thajn the number of 30+ point games that Kareem poured on Hakeem in 10 straight H2H's at ages 38 and 39.) Oh, and his career FG% against Nate... .447.

On top of that... a PEAK Kareem, in his greatest season of his career...was OUTSCORED and OUTSHOT by an aging Thurmond in the '72 playoffs. BTW, Kareem shot .405 from the floor in that same series.

What does all of that tell you?

Thurmond >>>>>> Hakeem AND Shaq.

Thanks for playing.

[swagga]

Loseruss posts are "easy reads"???

maybe some posters have degrees in creative writing? seriously, laz should just man up and write a book, i'd even buy it. seriously, just for the

[Bankaii]

Interesting...

A 39 year old KAJ ROUTINELY dumped 40+ point games on a prime Hakeem, with a high of 46 points, and in only 37 minutes... and all on .630+ FG%'s. A 40 year old Kareem outscored him, and outshot him by a .567 to .403 margin in his 4 H2H's that season.

A PEAK Shaq, put up his career high against a fading Hakeem in the '99 playoffs... of 37 points.

Now, a PEAK Kareem faced a fading Nate Thurmond in some 35 career H2H's. His HIGH game against him was 34 points (and only five total BTW...one less thajn the number of 30+ point games that Kareem poured on Hakeem in 10 straight H2H's at ages 38 and 39.) Oh, and his career FG% against Nate... .447.

On top of that... a PEAK Kareem, in his greatest season of his career...was OUTSCORED and OUTSHOT by an aging Thurmond in the '72 playoffs. BTW, Kareem shot .405 from the floor in that same series.

What does all of that tell you?

Thurmond >>>>>> Hakeem AND Shaq.

Thanks for playing.

What the hell does any of this have to do with Wilt or Russell

[LAZERUSS]

What the hell does any of this have to do with Wilt or Russell

A PRIME Chamberlain DESTROYED a PEAK Thurmond in their H2H's, and throughout their entire careers.

[Bankaii]

A PRIME Chamberlain DESTROYED a PEAK Thurmond in their H2H's, and throughout their entire careers.

Using individual matchup a to determine if one player is better than another is idiotic.

I need one explanation from you. Why the MDE scorer went from 30 PPG in the RS to 18 in the Finals when it really mattered. Scroll through your novels and enlighten me grandpa.

[RRR3]

Using individual matchup a to determine if one player is better than another is idiotic.

I need one explanation from you. Why the MDE scorer went from 30 PPG in the RS to 18 in the Finals when it really mattered. Scroll through your novels and enlighten me grandpa.

Wilt only played in one NBA finals during his years as a record-setting scorer to be fair. http://www.basketball-reference.com/...s-celtics.html

[RRR3]

Wilt didn't shoot nearly as much in the playoffs either, on average. It's not like he suddenly started missing everything. His playoff stats are definitely less impressive than his regular season stats, and this does negatively affect his candidacy for GOAT, but I don't see how he's not top 5 at the least when you consider he was known as one of the GOAT defensive players as well. Even if he wasn't scoring much, he could dominate. IIRC he won Finals MVP when he wasn't even scoring that much, due to his defense, rebounding and passing.

[LAZERUSS]

Using individual matchup a to determine if one player is better than another is idiotic.

I need one explanation from you. Why the MDE scorer went from 30 PPG in the RS to 18 in the Finals when it really mattered. Scroll through your novels and enlighten me grandpa.

No need to.

First, why did MJ's ppg and FG% efficiency decline dramatically against the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90 (and even into '91 when the Pistons were just a shell)?

Why did Shaq' s scoring and efficiency decline considerably against the Robinson-Spurs from '99 thru '02?

Why did Kareem's scoring and efficiency fall off the cliff when he faced Chamberlain and Thurmond in his 5 playoff series H2H's against them?


Next...ask yourself this...

Did Wilt make the Finals EVERY season in his career? Or did he make it five times out of six seasons AFTER his scoring prime?


BUT, just to help you...

even if we were to take his playoff stats at face value (and not using CONTEXT)... a CAREER 23-25 player, who outshot the post-season NBA by nearly ten percentage points above the league average.

Of course, using CONTEXT, and they suddenly become GOAT-like.

For instance,... gotta love the "30 ppg RS, 18 (actually 19 BTW) PO" Wilt.

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

[LAZERUSS]

Using individual matchup a to determine if one player is better than another is idiotic.

I need one explanation from you. Why the MDE scorer went from 30 PPG in the RS to 18 in the Finals when it really mattered. Scroll through your novels and enlighten me grandpa.

And then there is this...

[QUOTE]Oh, and then there is this, as well...

Scoring? How about post-season runs of 28, 29, 33, 35, 35, and 37 ppg? How about post-season series of 37, 37, 39, and 39 ppg? How about post-season series of 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 34-27 against RUSSELL? How about 13 playoff games of 40+...11 of which came in his 52 playoff games in his "scoring" seasons (21% for those keeping track.) How about MUST WIN games of 45-27 (Finals BTW), 46-34 (against RUSSELL BTW), 50-22, 50-35 (against RUSSELL BTW), and even a 56-35-12 game? As well as another 50 point game in the '64 WDF's. Or series clinching games of 30-32, 30-26, 38-26, and 39-26-10?

How about his MUST WIN playoff games? In his 23 must win playoff games...

31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .435 in the same span.)

How about his 37 MUST WIN, and SERIES CLINCHING playoff games?

29.5 ppg, 26.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, and on a .546 FG% (again, in post-seasons that shot .435 in that span...or nearly TWELVE percentage points above the league average.)


Rebounding? Simply...the GOAT post-season rebounder in NBA history. Yes, Russell had a slightly higher average... 24.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg...BUT, in their eight playoff series H2H's, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of them. Including margins of 5, 6, and even 9 rpg! Oh, Chamberlain is also the all-time FINALS leading rebounder with a career average of 24.6 rpg.

He played in 13 post-seasons, and his LOW was 20.2 rpg. He also had post-seasons of 28, 29, and even 30 rpg. And he had series of 30 and 31 rpg (both against RUSSELL BTW.) In his LAST post-season, at age 36, and covering 17 games... 22.5 rpg, in a post-season that averaged 50.6 rpg per team (just this last season the NBA averaged 42.0 rpg.) That translates to 19 rpg in the '16 playoffs. In his LAST season.

He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them. He was outrebounded by PF Jerry Lucas in ONE...and by a 21.0 to 20.0 rpg margin/ However, when the two faced each other as CENTERS, a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lacas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg margin.

Wilt was outrebounding Reed by 14 rpg, Thurmond by 7 rpg, and Russell by 9 rpg.


Playoff RECORDS? Surely this "declining" Wilt would not have any post-season records, right? How about, and by far, the most 20-20 games, the most 30-20 games, the most 20-30 games, the most 30-30 games, the most 40-20 games, the most 40-30 games, the most 50-20 games, and the most 50-30 games? How about the most post-seasons of 20-20, 30-20, 30-25, 35-20?


Blocked shots? Tim Duncan just retired with the "official" post-season blocked shot record of 568 in his 251 playoff games. Well nbastats.net contributor, Julizaver found blocked shot data for 81 of Wilt's 160 post-season games...or roughly half (and almost all of it from the mid-60's on)...and... 590 blocked shots...in 81 games! Hell, an old Wilt blocked 33 shots in his '72 WCF's in the four known games of that series, and 15 of those were on KAJ!

Defense? Wilt held Russell to playoff series FG%'s of .399, .397, .386, and .358 (in a season in which Russell shot .454 against the NBA.) He held Thurmond to playoff series of .392, .373, and .343 (a PEAK Nate BTW...and in a season in which Thurmond shot .437 against the NBA.) He held Bellamy to .450 in a season in which Bellamy shot .521 against the NBA, and then to .421 in a season in which Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA. Oh, can't forget Kareem, either. KAJ shot .577 and .574 against the NBA in '71 and '72. Against Wilt in those two post-seasons? .481 and .457 (including .414 in the last four games of that series.)

How about Wilt's FG% in his six Finals? .559...all while holding his opposing centers (all in the HOF BTW)...to a combined .439. Or how about his two game seven's of the Finals? He outshot Reed and Russell by a combined .708 to .333 margin (all while averaging 19.5 ppg and 25.5 rpg.)


Passing? Find me a CENTER who averaged 9.0 apg in an entire playoff run (which, BTW, led the post-season that year.) Or a center who had two straight triple-double series (28-27-11, and 22-32-10)?


Of course, had a PRIME Wilt faced the likes of a washed Smits, or a 35 year old Mutombo (whom Shaq was allowed to beat to a bloody pulp in some of the most disgraceful offciating in Finals history), or a never-was in the career 6 ppg scoring MacCulloch, or the complete bust in Eric Dampier... in his Finals...no doubt he would have been putting up 30-40-and 50 point playoff games against them.

GOAT.

[RRR3]

Saying "35 year old Mutombo" is pretty disingenuous considering he was DPOY and All-NBA 2nd team that year. We all know which center was 1st team too.

[LAZERUSS]

Saying "35 year old Mutombo" is pretty disingenuous considering he was DPOY and All-NBA 2nd team that year. We all know which center was 1st team too.

"Whom he was allowed to bloody to a pulp..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Now, you tell me just how many offensive fouls SHOULD have been called in that 47 second sequence alone.

Geezus, lets's just sign Brock Lesnar to a contract and let him play center in the NBA...

If the NBA had allowed Wilt to play like that, guys like Mutombo would have been carried out in bodybags.

[RRR3]

"Whom he was allowed to bloody to a pulp..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Now, you tell me just how many offensive fouls SHOULD have been called in that 47 second sequence alone.

Geezus, lets's just sign Brock Lesnar to a contract and let him play center in the NBA...

If the NBA had allowed Wilt to play like that, guys like Mutombo would have been carried out in bodybags.

Two for sure, but that doesn't really prove anything. Superstars get away with a lot. In this past finals alone, for instance, consider how often LeBron, Kyrie and Steph Curry push off their defender.

[AirFederer]

Agreed.

How about this goofball from the 60's winning TWO MVPs. Can you imagine him in a league with Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and Lebron?




Take a look at this 60's PG....who was a career .368 shooter BTW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=993UTozPECc

Then take a look at this 6-8 clown from the 60's. That era was so bad that this guy could run away with the rpg title, and in only 35 mpg. He also put up a 26-12 season, as well. Just truly laughable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7TnbhJr8iY


And just look, here was a STARTING CENTER from the 60's, that was 6-5 1/2.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chuck-Hayes-110/


And how do you think the 6-9 Bill Russell would have fared against the 6-11 Dwight Howard?



BTW, how about the "6-11" Demarcus Cousins

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...-Cousins-1318/

Oh, and take a look at that Cousins vertical, too.

Can you imagine Cousins looking like this clod...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc


And then how about the "6-11" DeAndre Jordan?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...e-Jordan-1072/

Or the "7-0" Andre Drummond?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...Drummond-5772/


Can you imagine Kareem, who played in the NBA in 1969, facing a center who gave Shaq all he could handle in the '95 Finals?

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nb...s-rockets.nba/

BTW, Kareem was 39 years old in that game. A week later he outscored Patrick Ewing 40-9, and outshot him from the floor by a 15-22 to 3-17 margin.

Nope...no way a prime Kareem would ever make it in today's NBA.


Thanks for giving us all here your brilliant insight. We are all much better off for it.

BTW Wilt is sooo overrated. Sorry bout all them walls of texts peeps. Grandpa out