How come Wilt fans have to write novels to make a convincing argument?

[Nilocon165]

Just saying.

Nobody is gonna care or have the time to read your posts when you have to go through so much work to convince everyone that he wasn't a choker.

[Big164]

We dont.

[egokiller]

OP just got shitted on with a single image being posted.

[LAZERUSS]

Just saying.

Nobody is gonna care or have the time to read your posts when you have to go through so much work to convince everyone that he wasn't a choker.

Because the evidence is so overwhelming. You could write BOOKS on Chamberlain's dominance in BOTH the regular season AND the post-season.

As for "choker"...

even if we were to take his playoff stats at face value (and not using CONTEXT)... a CAREER 23-25 player, who outshot the post-season NBA by nearly ten percentage points above the league average.

Of course, using CONTEXT, and they suddenly become GOAT-like.

For instance,... gotta love the "30 ppg RS, 18 (actually 19 BTW) PO" Wilt.

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

[TommyGriffin]

First 3 posters are the same person.

[j3lademaster]

Just saying.

Nobody is gonna care or have the time to read your posts when you have to go through so much work to convince everyone that he wasn't a choker.

well, what do you come on here to read? It's a basketball forum, you give an opinion and back it up with facts as best you can. I can comprehend full 3ball/ Laz posts with spare minutes between work emails, I find them to be well structured and easy reads. Whether I agree is a different story, but if you're struggling or investing too much time into trying to read such posts it might be more of a personal problem.

[iamgine]

They don't have to. It's just retired grandpas have a lot of time on their hand.

[Hey Yo]

OP just got shitted on with a single image being posted.

present to past tense in a blink of an eye

[I<3NBA]

because 5 ringz hurr durr is better

[Mr Feeny]

Because the evidence is so overwhelming. You could write BOOKS on Chamberlain's dominance in BOTH the regular season AND the post-season.

As for "choker"...

even if we were to take his playoff stats at face value (and not using CONTEXT)... a CAREER 23-25 player, who outshot the post-season NBA by nearly ten percentage points above the league average.

Of course, using CONTEXT, and they suddenly become GOAT-like.

For instance,... gotta love the "30 ppg RS, 18 (actually 19 BTW) PO" Wilt.

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

I'm sorry but.

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5


Could you verify these choke stats?

Many thanks fella.

[LostCause]

well, what do you come on here to read? It's a basketball forum, you give an opinion and back it up with facts as best you can. I can comprehend full 3ball/ Laz posts with spare minutes between work emails, I find them to be well structured and easy reads. Whether I agree is a different story, but if you're struggling or investing too much time into trying to read such posts it might be more of a personal problem.

Damn

[Asukal]

well, what do you come on here to read? It's a basketball forum, you give an opinion and back it up with facts as best you can. I can comprehend full 3ball/ Laz posts with spare minutes between work emails, I find them to be well structured and easy reads. Whether I agree is a different story, but if you're struggling or investing too much time into trying to read such posts it might be more of a personal problem.

Loseruss posts are "easy reads"???

[AirBonner]

Could you imagine an argument with 3ball and laz? 200 pages minimum.

[AintNoSunshine]

More like ' How come Wilt fans have to write novels to make a convincing argument that convinces noone?

[Milbuck]

Anyone who has watched even a little 60s basketball and seriously believes it's anywhere remotely close to the level of competition of the recent eras is laughably delusional and beyond a reasonable discussion. Textbook old man yelling at cloud delusion, don't even bother.

I wish there was a way to throw some of today's players into the 60s against the part time car salesman they had derping around then, with those dogshit defensive schemes and pace through the roof. Like put 2009 Lebron in the league. Imagine the massacre that would be Bob Cousy trying to defend Westbrook