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Old 01-09-2008, 01:11 PM   #31
saKf
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

I'm very surprised at the low support for Stockton.
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:29 PM   #32
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saKf
I'm very surprised at the low support for Stockton.


Thats because you're hearing from young people that listen to media hype and don't really understand the differences that make some one better.

They think his rebounding makes him better but you don't need 5+ rebounds from your pg cause if anyone played ball you remember that when a shot goes up the pg is taught to go to the extended elbow for the outlet on defense and is usually the 1st guy back on defense so his rebounding isn't important.

And look at this season people are saying that Kidd is having a career year cause of the triple doubles but his #s are actually down and he's not really having that great of a year. Kidd might have a few seasons with more ppg but how many does he have with more assists or better %s
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizzla11
Thats because you're hearing from young people that listen to media hype and don't really understand the differences that make some one better.

They think his rebounding makes him better but you don't need 5+ rebounds from your pg cause if anyone played ball you remember that when a shot goes up the pg is taught to go to the extended elbow for the outlet on defense and is usually the 1st guy back on defense so his rebounding isn't important.

And look at this season people are saying that Kidd is having a career year cause of the triple doubles but his #s are actually down and he's not really having that great of a year. Kidd might have a few seasons with more ppg but how many does he have with more assists or better %s

? Who taught you that? There isn't a paved path that all basketball players are supposed to take. Basketball is a great sport because it can be played in many different ways. Usually, if you want to start a fast break, you always give it to your SG or PG. It's even faster to start the break if your SG or PG rebound the ball. Why do you think Kidd grabs rebounds? Because his team can't grab anything and to start the break which the Nets usually thrive on.
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:58 PM   #34
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizzla11
Thats because you're hearing from young people that listen to media hype and don't really understand the differences that make some one better.

They think his rebounding makes him better but you don't need 5+ rebounds from your pg cause if anyone played ball you remember that when a shot goes up the pg is taught to go to the extended elbow for the outlet on defense and is usually the 1st guy back on defense so his rebounding isn't important.

And look at this season people are saying that Kidd is having a career year cause of the triple doubles but his #s are actually down and he's not really having that great of a year. Kidd might have a few seasons with more ppg but how many does he have with more assists or better %s



Not true

First when I was a teenager they were trying to compare Stockton to Magic Johnson and the Utah Jazz were on TV alot. Mainly because they won every yr! Lets not act like Stocktons the victim of a popularity contest.

To me it boils down to one fact. Everywhere Kidd has gone he's been a success and been to 2 finals with a team full of where are they now players.
From Mashburn to Jim Jackson, the Luscious Harris's, the Kerry Kittles the Kieth Van Horns the after prime Penny Hardaway and made the playoffs!
Stockton played for the same team, same system, same coach, same players his entire career. As good as he was, he wasn't the catalyst for the Jazz. Kidd on the other hand is. Don't care bout stat crunching cuz after watching Deron Williams in that system, can you imagine what Kidd would have done in Sloans System. Stockton was good Kidd is just better
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:12 PM   #35
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saKf
I'm very surprised at the low support for Stockton.
exactly I was baffled at what some people said in the first page, which is why I had to reply, even though I only started to avidly watch basketball around '94, Stock was already the man that time.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:14 PM   #36
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elz
Not true

First when I was a teenager they were trying to compare Stockton to Magic Johnson and the Utah Jazz were on TV alot. Mainly because they won every yr! Lets not act like Stocktons the victim of a popularity contest.

To me it boils down to one fact. Everywhere Kidd has gone he's been a success and been to 2 finals with a team full of where are they now players.
From Mashburn to Jim Jackson, the Luscious Harris's, the Kerry Kittles the Kieth Van Horns the after prime Penny Hardaway and made the playoffs!
Stockton played for the same team, same system, same coach, same players his entire career. As good as he was, he wasn't the catalyst for the Jazz. Kidd on the other hand is. Don't care bout stat crunching cuz after watching Deron Williams in that system, can you imagine what Kidd would have done in Sloans System. Stockton was good Kidd is just better
scott layden's system was very different than sloans. stockton played a lot more like nash than deron before sloan took over - granted that was like 91, but he showed what he could do as a penetrate and kick / pure creator guard. he was phenominal. his ability to get into the paint at will against scott and cooper is what pushed the lakers matchup to 7 tough games in 88. well that and eaton's d on kareem.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:18 PM   #37
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gencbiba
? Who taught you that? There isn't a paved path that all basketball players are supposed to take. Basketball is a great sport because it can be played in many different ways. Usually, if you want to start a fast break, you always give it to your SG or PG. It's even faster to start the break if your SG or PG rebound the ball. Why do you think Kidd grabs rebounds? Because his team can't grab anything and to start the break which the Nets usually thrive on.

Its basketball 101 the guard goes to the side for the outlet from the big man that grabbed the board. cause the PG is usually out closser to the 3pt line when the shot goes up cause he's boxing out his man or if his an doesn't crash then he gets a long rebound or the outlet pass.

If you grab a board in the key and I'm a good 10-20 feet ahead of you wouldn't it be quicker to pass the ball 10 to 20 feet rather than driblle it the distance. I think you can pass the ball a certain distance a lot faster than you can dribble it that distance but thats my opinion.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:27 PM   #38
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Stockton was probably the greatest help defender of all-time from the point guard position. People have developed some myth about how he camped passing lanes, but he obtained a majority of his steals by playing great help defense in the post, and great help defense on penetration. Some of the quickest hands I have ever seen. As for Kidd, he needs his size to even be comparable to Stockton defensively.

As for prime, Jason Kidd was able to lead those New Jersey teams to finals appearances because their conference was incredibly weak, while Stockton took his teams through much more parody.
Stockton and Malone making a west finals in the early 90s > Kidd and Martin making an NBA finals through a weak east.

If Kidd's teams had to deal with the playoff teams Stockton faced, he wouldn't have nearly the same success. The fact that the Jazz had two superstars and struggled in the playoffs shows the incredible depth some of the other teams had and the parody of the western conference. The Jazz certainly did not have the depth, and were trying to build as a franchise at the time.

If Kidd has one advantage, it's versatility. He's bigger, but Stockton is underrated in terms of his strength (setting picks on players twice his size and not moving a bit).

Kidd's shooting really puts him at a disadvantage, the fact that he is unable to knock down an open jumper with consistency is definitely a knock against him, while Stockton is miles ahead in the shooting department. It certainly adds another dimension to Stockton's game, and makes him that much more dangerous than Kidd.

If you ask me who was the better point guard in their prime, give me Stockton. A prime is even more valuable when you are able to play at a high level for longer, which Stockton did. (Though I have my biases to my own era).

Last edited by 90sDynasty : 01-09-2008 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:37 PM   #39
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elz
Not true

First when I was a teenager they were trying to compare Stockton to Magic Johnson and the Utah Jazz were on TV alot. Mainly because they won every yr! Lets not act like Stocktons the victim of a popularity contest.

To me it boils down to one fact. Everywhere Kidd has gone he's been a success and been to 2 finals with a team full of where are they now players.
From Mashburn to Jim Jackson, the Luscious Harris's, the Kerry Kittles the Kieth Van Horns the after prime Penny Hardaway and made the playoffs!
Stockton played for the same team, same system, same coach, same players his entire career. As good as he was, he wasn't the catalyst for the Jazz. Kidd on the other hand is. Don't care bout stat crunching cuz after watching Deron Williams in that system, can you imagine what Kidd would have done in Sloans System. Stockton was good Kidd is just better

Stockton played in two vastly different systems, and actually was more of a focal point of the offense under Frank Layden than he was Sloan. I know that Sloan is more of a slow it down type coach, and had a point guard that facilitated from the perimeter, rather than Layden who had Stockton penetrate and facilitate from all over the floor.

Kidd wouldn't have success in a Sloan type system, because he is a liability shooting the ball, and he makes a structured offense too one-dimensional.

And about Kidd's success, with Dallas he went 36-46 his rookie year, and 26-56 his second. I wouldn't call that success.

Last edited by 90sDynasty : 01-09-2008 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:42 PM   #40
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dejordan
scott layden's system ...

Frank Layden, Scott is his son and has never been a head coach of the Jazz, he is currently an assistant though.

I would of course take Stockton if I am looking for a guy to mesh with a team and not make many mistakes. Low number of TO's and had a great FG and FT shooting %. He is one of the most unselfish players I've seen play. Sometimes you would wish he would have shot more instead of passing it to guys that weren't nearly as good.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:43 PM   #41
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 90sDynasty
Stockton played in two vastly different systems, and actually was more of a focal point of the offense under Frank Layden than he was Sloan. I know that Sloan is more of a slow it down type coach, and had a point guard that facilitated from the perimeter, rather than Layden who had Stockton penetrate and facilitate from all over the floor.

Kidd wouldn't have success in a Sloan type system, because he is a liability shooting the ball, and he makes a structured offense too one-dimensional.

And about Kidd's success, with Dallas he went 36-46 his rookie year, and 26-56 his second. I wouldn't call that success.

Great analysis, great research.

It's funny how facts always send fluff up in a cloud of smoke.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:50 PM   #42
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ak47smohawk
Frank Layden, Scott is his son and has never been a head coach of the Jazz, he is currently an assistant though.

I would of course take Stockton if I am looking for a guy to mesh with a team and not make many mistakes. Low number of TO's and had a great FG and FT shooting %. He is one of the most unselfish players I've seen play. Sometimes you would wish he would have shot more instead of passing it to guys that weren't nearly as good.

Stockton wasn't at all careful with the ball, in fact, he took big risks from what I have seen. He was slightly turnover prone, but nearly every time he turned it over it was almost always due to a broken play. Either he miscommunicated, or his teammate had miscommunicated, but he was always a high-risk, high reward type point guard. He, of course, counter-acted this by controlling the pace better than any point guard to ever play.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:53 PM   #43
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 90sDynasty
Stockton wasn't at all careful with the ball, in fact, he took big risks from what I have seen. He was slightly turnover prone, but nearly every time he turned it over it was almost always due to a broken play. Either he miscommunicated, or his teammate had miscommunicated, but he was always a high-risk, high reward type point guard. He, of course, counter-acted this by controlling the pace better than any point guard to ever play.

What? Are we talking about the same John Stockton?
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:53 PM   #44
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ak47smohawk
Frank Layden, Scott is his son and has never been a head coach of the Jazz, he is currently an assistant though.

I would of course take Stockton if I am looking for a guy to mesh with a team and not make many mistakes. Low number of TO's and had a great FG and FT shooting %. He is one of the most unselfish players I've seen play. Sometimes you would wish he would have shot more instead of passing it to guys that weren't nearly as good.
thanks, my bad. i meant his fat father.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:57 PM   #45
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Default Re: In their prime: John Stockton or Jason Kidd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20 Dimes A Game
What? Are we talking about the same John Stockton?

I should clarify. Stockton wasn't a careful decision maker, he often took risks to get his team an easy basket. But, don't get me wrong, Stockton is the epitome of precision when it comes to half court playmaking, I'm not sure I would have anyone else throwing those passes.
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