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  1. #16
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
    Quote: Jerry West told Sports Illustrated, "The guy is the ambassador of our sport. John always gave his very best every night and had time for everybody-teammates, fans, the press." Cowens added, "You tell me how many class guys there are like him anywhere. They ought to retire his number from the whole NBA. Just take 17 and stash it up there in lights."


    Quote: "He epitomizes everything good," said Celtics general manager Red Auerbach in The New York Times. "If I had a son like John I'd be the happiest man in the world."



    Quote: "On stamina alone, he'd be among the top players who ever played the game," longtime New York Knicks coach Red Holzman once said of John "Hondo" Havlicek. "It would've been fair to those who had to play him or those who had to coach against him if he had been blessed only with his inhuman endurance. God had to compound it by making him a good scorer, smart ballhandler and intelligent defensive player with quickness of mind, hands and feet."
    To be one of the best in your sport, you have to be a good statesman or get praised from your peers like MJ, Kobe, Magic and others.

    This alone, says Hondo over Lebron.

    Not many players are kissing Lebron's @ss.

  2. #17
    Facts Are Misleading
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
    I think I view failure differently than many. I say people fail with teams that should win. So id say he failed last year but never before that. When a team wins 60+ for no reason but you being there...they arent supposed to win it all. They were like the secodn worst team in the NBA last year before Andy and Mo went down. People talk up missing Big Z when they were on a 60+ win pace inthe month or so he was gone after being traded to the Wizards. They were no worse without Shaq either. There was exactly one impact player on that team and he is the sole reason worth discussion that they went from 60+ wins to worst in the NBA.

    I wouldnt say Dirk would be a failure for losing last year. Or the year before that. Not teams that just...should win.

    I find it funny that Reggie Miller didnt win...but they never really...should have won. Karl Malone....I never thought he would win to begin with. Sure as hell not in the finals. What is funny to me is the way he managed to fail.

    Id say Lebron never lost to a team that his team flat out should have handled till the Mavs. The Celtics were just better than the cavs. Dwight no doubt had more help than Lebron while Lebron was playing well enough to have that post season thrown in with Jordans best without looking out of place.

    That said...I wouldnt be upset at Hondo winning. Hondo might win 3 in a row.
    I agree that not winning a title on the Cavs shouldn't be held against him really, but what you can't excuse is the fact he mailed it in against Boston, looked dis-interested in the Magic series elimination game, played pretty bad in the finals against the Spurs and everyone knows what happened in the finals this year. When you're the "chosen one," and then play like that in what is the biggest moments of the season....that's failing.

    One thing to not be expected to win a title because of your supporting cast, it's another to play well below expectations and/or mail it in.

  3. #18
    Heat Nation Papaya Petee's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    This LeBron James hatred is getting way out of hand.


    LeBron and it's not even close.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    Lebron

  5. #20
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    Magic and many others have been calling Lebron the best in the NBA:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXDR-P9uICQ

    The decision to stop after the decision was an emotional one not a basketball playing ability one. He got hated on all year and after the finals of course it got worse. But a lot of people knew it wasnt really a question who the best player in the NBA was suddenly thought otherwise after an interview.

    Emotion got involved and changed a lot of opinions.

  6. #21
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 1987_Lakers's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    LOL, Havlicek isn't even on the same level as LeBron as a player. Hondo might have more accomplishments, but LeBron is simply the better player.

  7. #22
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer DMAVS41's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
    I think I view failure differently than many. I say people fail with teams that should win. So id say he failed last year but never before that. When a team wins 60+ for no reason but you being there...they arent supposed to win it all. They were like the secodn worst team in the NBA last year before Andy and Mo went down. People talk up missing Big Z when they were on a 60+ win pace inthe month or so he was gone after being traded to the Wizards. They were no worse without Shaq either. There was exactly one impact player on that team and he is the sole reason worth discussion that they went from 60+ wins to worst in the NBA.

    I wouldnt say Dirk would be a failure for losing last year. Or the year before that. Not teams that just...should win.

    I find it funny that Reggie Miller didnt win...but they never really...should have won. Karl Malone....I never thought he would win to begin with. Sure as hell not in the finals. What is funny to me is the way he managed to fail.

    Id say Lebron never lost to a team that his team flat out should have handled till the Mavs. The Celtics were just better than the cavs. Dwight no doubt had more help than Lebron while Lebron was playing well enough to have that post season thrown in with Jordans best without looking out of place.

    That said...I wouldnt be upset at Hondo winning. Hondo might win 3 in a row.
    Not sure why it can't just be about how these players play...

    Should Lebron have beaten the Spurs in 07? No....but he should have played better.

    I've never understood why people want to rank individual players so much on whether the team wins/loses and then throw out how an individual played.

    Makes no sense to me.

    The reason Lebron shouldn't be ranked over Hondo (and a bunch of others at this point) is because his play simply hasn't been good enough for his teams to win at times. Outside of 09, Lebron has had some form of a poor stretch in the playoffs.

    07...awful in the finals
    08...awful in the first few games of the Celtics series
    10....who knows why, but just awful in the pivotal game 5
    11....worst finals performance by a superstar that i've ever seen

    Its one thing to lose...nothing wrong with that...its now and always has been a team game...but losing while playing like crap in pivotal moments and games? That just doesn't cut it. And Lebron has his fair share of those moments already....

    And he doesn't have a ring yet. He doesn't have a run from start to finish yet. Until he gets that, especially playing on the most talented (or close to it) in the league, he just can't rank higher than a lot of guys all time.

  8. #23
    Good college starter
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    Lebron until the last quarter.

  9. #24
    Lol RRR3's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    LeBron James He is just on another tier in terms of how good of a player he is. I'm sorry, but Havlicek wasn't "leading" the Celtics to most of those rings anyways, Bill Russell was for the most part.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    LeBron James

  11. #26
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    I agree that not winning a title on the Cavs shouldn't be held against him really, but what you can't excuse is the fact he mailed it in against Boston, looked dis-interested in the Magic series elimination game, played pretty bad in the finals against the Spurs and everyone knows what happened in the finals this year.
    Looked disinterested? cant speak on that. And the Celtic thing? Anothero ne. People are going t osee what they wish. People said the same of of Kobe v the Suns and Jordan vs the Pistons when he had what I think was his worst playoff game ever(at least pre rings). Im not in anyones head.

    Far as the spurs....

    He did the exact opposite as he did vs the Heat. Going down he decided to go down shooing. He shot like 30-31 tomes vs the spurs when they went out. Cant really question his attempt to get them in the game.

    When you're the "chosen one," and then play like that in what is the biggest moments of the season....that's failing.
    For the most part...I find such things to be matters of emotion.


    One thing to not be expected to win a title because of your supporting cast, it's another to play well below expectations and/or mail it in.
    All thats really expected of great player by history is Ws. He never had a team worth expecting them out of until now. So im not terribly concerned. Ive seen better players than Lebron lose with more talent than hes had plenty of times. On the Heat he should get it done. If not...hating is justified.

  12. #27
    Good High School Starter Miller for 3's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    Hondo. More reliable in the clutch and a better passer and defender. Lebron is better at his prime, but he is a ball stopper and can't play any role other than ball pounder. hondo could be your spark off the bench, lockdown defender, point guard, go to scorer, etc. Lebron has always made his teammates worse and can't do anything without the ball in his hands for 15+ seconds every possession.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller for 3
    Hondo. More reliable in the clutch and a better passer and defender. Lebron is better at his prime, but he is a ball stopper and can't play any role other than ball pounder. hondo could be your spark off the bench, lockdown defender, point guard, go to scorer, etc. Lebron has always made his teammates worse and can't do anything without the ball in his hands for 15+ seconds every possession.
    Some of you guys.. the hatred against Lebron is getting retarded..

  14. #29
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    Ive seen no evidence in the games and highlights that Hondo is a better passer and he averaged less assists than Lebron at their peak numbers despite playing more minutes in a faster league. not that assists=passing. But I would like to hear the evidence to suggest Hondo is a better passer that isnt just some claim about Lebron being an overrated passer. Id like to hear what anyone has to put Hondo over him as a passer...that is actually based on something they can show or tell me about Hondo.

  15. #30
    Good High School Starter Miller for 3's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rnbizzle
    Some of you guys.. the hatred against Lebron is getting retarded..
    Name a teammate who got better playing with Lebron other than Mo for one fluke year? Larry Hughes was a dominant two way wing, plays with Lebron becomes a scrub. Shaq was an 18-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Jamison was a 20-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Bosh was a 24-10 big, joins Lebron, scrub. Anthony Parker was a two time MVP and go to cltuch scorer for the Raptors, joins Lebron, scrub. Ben Wallace, Wally S, Hickson, Snow, etc. Lebron turned them all into spot up shooters and basically ruined their careers. Hondo was better at filling in what you need, Lebron is better at taking away from everyone else

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