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Old 11-11-2019, 06:50 PM   #16
RRR3
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Originally Posted by ImKobe
BPM (especially defensive) is not a very accurate stat as its own creators admitted, I wouldn't read too much into that stat. Also, a player shooting well on a bad team would get a higher OBPM than a player shooting the same on a team that had a better average TS%. There are other issues with that statistic as well. It's one of the least important stats but you're obsessed about it beause it supports your argument, but I doubt you know anything about how it's actually calculated.

Can you tell me why Steve Nash was only 13th and 9th in OBPM during his MVP seasons while running the 1st and 2nd best offenses in the league?
What stats would you like to go by?

And regardless, it’s at least debatable. And by year 3 MJ was without a doubt better than any version of Kobe. You can’t argue that.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:54 PM   #17
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Originally Posted by RRR3
BPM?

Sorry man, but it’s not insane to say rookie MJ was better than peak Kobe if we’re talking stats.

Well, lucky for most of us we watch games. I know that's a foreign concept for a lot of you but try it out.

BPM is a box score variant anyway. And adds raw numbers together. Its nowhere near metrics like RPM and RAPM that actually measure impact.

Rookie MJ wasn't better than MVP Kobe. I'd say for most of his career Jordan was better though. From 87-98, for example, you could say Mike was the better player. But that would require actually talking about his game. Not just his numbers.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
Well, lucky for most of us we watch games. I know that's a foreign concept for a lot of you but try it out.

BPM is a box score variant anyway. And adds raw numbers together. Its nowhere near metrics like RPM and RAPM that actually measure impact.

Rookie MJ wasn't better than MVP Kobe. I'd say for most of his career Jordan was better though. From 87-98, for example, you could say Mike was the better player. But that would require actually talking about his game. Not just his numbers.
ImKobe was using stats

We don’t have RPM or RAPM from back then, but would you honestly be shocked if rookie MJ graded out better in those categories?
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Originally Posted by RRR3
ImKobe was using stats

We don’t have RPM or RAPM from back then, but would you honestly be shocked if rookie MJ graded out better in those categories?

Yeah somewhat.

Because I think Kobe was better.

More polished, clearly a better shooter and already had the experience of winning 3 chips. A seasoned vet in the game.

I'm a huge collector of Jordan games btw. Or was when that was my hobby. I have every game from his rookie year available in circulation. Bottom line, I think it was close because of his freakish athleticism. And his ability to finish @ the rim. But again...Kobe's game and knowledge was more refined at 29 versus Jordan's 21.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:12 PM   #21
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Yeah somewhat.

Because I think Kobe was better.

More polished, clearly a better shooter and already had the experience of winning 3 chips. A seasoned vet in the game.

I'm a huge collector of Jordan games btw. Or was when that was my hobby. I have every game from his rookie year available in circulation. Bottom line, I think it was close because of his freakish athleticism. And his ability to finish @ the rim. But again...Kobe's game and knowledge was more refined at 29 versus Jordan's 21.
How about Jordan at 23? 37 PPG year.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:23 PM   #22
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Originally Posted by RRR3
ImKobe was using stats

We donít have RPM or RAPM from back then, but would you honestly be shocked if rookie MJ graded out better in those categories?

I just pointed out that MJ played at a higher pace and Kobe did better at the same age raw averages-wise on a winning team, as AirBonner was using those numbers to make his point.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:24 PM   #23
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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How about Jordan at 23? 37 PPG year.

I would take 87-98 Jordan over every version of Kobe.

So that would include that year.

Better scorer. Defender. Motor. Athlete. Decision maker etc. The only thing Kobe had on him was long distance shooting. Mike made up for that with his incredible midrange and slashing tho. 90-93 Jordan also shot the 3 better than peak Kobe in the playoffs.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
Yeah somewhat.

Because I think Kobe was better.

More polished, clearly a better shooter and already had the experience of winning 3 chips. A seasoned vet in the game.

I'm a huge collector of Jordan games btw. Or was when that was my hobby. I have every game from his rookie year available in circulation. Bottom line, I think it was close because of his freakish athleticism. And his ability to finish @ the rim. But again...Kobe's game and knowledge was more refined at 29 versus Jordan's 21.

Thats not really specific, "game and knowledge".. how exactly does that come into play on the court?

I remember Indian_guy defined it nicely, when he said why '06 Kobe is better than '06 LeBron, which was basically the same maturity argument as here of course, but I liked how he explained it.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:33 PM   #25
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

Jordan was 21/22 as a rookie.

Look at Kobe stats in 2001 at age 22..
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Jordan was 21/22 as a rookie.

Look at Kobe stats in 2001 at age 22..
Sure you want to use that argument? Cuz LeBron shits on both of them
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:40 PM   #27
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Originally Posted by Vino24
Sure you want to use that argument? Cuz LeBron shits on both of them

Lebron at age 22 averaged 25/8/8 on 41.6%FG in the Playoffs with 22/7/7 5.8 TOV on 36/20/69 splits in the Finals against the Spurs in a 0-4 loss. Kobe at age 22 put up 29/7/6 on 47%FG in the Playoffs with 33/7/7 51%FG in a 4-0 win against the Spurs. Kobe also did his damage in the hand-check era while Lebron played under softer rules.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:41 PM   #28
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Lebron at age 22 averaged 25/8/8 on 41.6%FG in the Playoffs with 22/7/7 5.8 TOV on 36/20/69 splits in the Finals against the Spurs in a 0-4 loss. Kobe at age 22 put up 29/7/6 on 47%FG in the Playoffs with 33/7/7 51%FG in a 4-0 win against the Spurs. Kobe also did his damage in the hand-check era while Lebron played under softer rules.
Kobe had peak Shaq. LeBron had Zydrunas Ilgauskas.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Originally Posted by ImKobe
Lebron at age 22 averaged 25/8/8 on 41.6%FG in the Playoffs with 22/7/7 5.8 TOV on 36/20/69 splits in the Finals against the Spurs in a 0-4 loss. Kobe at age 22 put up 29/7/6 on 47%FG in the Playoffs with 33/7/7 51%FG in a 4-0 win against the Spurs. Kobe also did his damage in the hand-check era while Lebron played under softer rules.
Itís almost like one of them had Shaq on their team to take some pressure off
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:44 PM   #30
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Default Re: Kobeís MVP season vs MJís rookie season

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Originally Posted by RRR3
Kobe had peak Shaq. LeBron had Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

LeBron had Roids..
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