Where would you rank Duncan on the all time centers list?

[oarabbus]

The point is that if you havent seen Russell and he wasnt statistically dominant, how do you arrive at your conclusion? Presuming you are using the criteria of defense and chips, you would have to also have guys like Mikan, Rodman, and Havlicek in your top 5 or 10. If you havent watched Russell play and there is nothing statistically that separates him, how can you justify him as a top 5 center ever without similarly ranking Hondo, Mikan and Worm that way at their positions?

With someone like Wilt, even if you havent watched him you can at least say 'my criteria is stats.' Doesnt mean Id have to agree but at least its consistent and Wilt cant be argued if your criteria is stats. How would you make a case for Russell if you havent watched him, without locking yourself into an extremely outside the box top 5 or top 10 all-time list that im positive you wouldnt name if asked to rank. Theres no stats to go on and there are other players with similar accomplishments that never get ranked nearly as high. Russell won his rings in an 8 team league. How can you oossibky separate him from the likes of Rodman and Mikan using any kind of rational argument, if you havent even watched him play???

You have to use a combination of stats, winning, longevity, etc. I don't think you can say absolutely "I rank on winning" because then Horry is a GOAT candidate. You can't say "I rank on stats" because then Wilt Chokerlain is GOAT. And the mix of these different categories is different for everyone. Maybe someone does rank 90% based on stats 9% winning and 1% longevity, etc.

I just don't understand the "you need to have seen him" argument. So one can't make claims about Genghis Khan being a greater conqueror than Charlemagne or Alexander the Great? If something didn't happen in your lifetime and you didn't see it, are you not allowed to make any claims about that?

[Kblaze8855]

Theres no stats to go on and there are other players with similar accomplishments that never get ranked nearly as high.

There is nobody with similar accomplishments. You are comparing him to guys who won...literally...less than half the rings he did.

Hes a 5 time MVP who won all but 2 elimination games of any variety from age 16 to 35.

And his ankle was broken in one of them.

There is nobody with his accomplishments and there never will be.

And saying there are no stats to go on is absurd. Like 15-19 a game leading or being second in rebounds and getting in the top 5-7 in assists league wide as a center isnt remarkable.

If Noah this year put up 15/14/8(roughly top 5 in assists) and blocked 4 shots a game with 2-3 steals while winning DPOY, MVP, and being the Bulls coach and best player on offense and defense as we start racking up rings nobody would act like it wasnt legendary.

His numbers take nothing from his greatness. The players watching other people put up better scoring numbers voted him the MVP....

[Akrazotile]

There is nobody with similar accomplishments. You are comparing him to guys who won...literally...less than half the rings he did.

Hes a 5 time MVP who won all but 2 elimination games of any variety from age 16 to 35.

And his ankle was broken in one of them.

There is nobody with his accomplishments and there never will be.

And saying there are no stats to go on is absurd. Like 15-19 a game leading or being second in rebounds and getting in the top 5-7 in assists league wide as a center isnt remarkable.

If Noah this year put up 15/14/8(roughly top 5 in assists) and blocked 4 shots a game with 2-3 steals while winning DPOY, MVP, and being the Bulls coach and best player on offense and defense as we start racking up rings nobody would act like it wasnt legendary.

His numbers take nothing from his greatness. The players watching other people put up better scoring numbers voted him the MVP....

Yet he didnt make first team frequently because those players felt there were better overall centers, but he was the most valuable to his team. In other words, he was surrounded by offensive talent that was equally important to winning titles, but he stood out as the defensive anchor. Thats great and thats impressive, but youre acting like you could have dropped Russell onto any team and won titles. Thats simply not true. He was great but he was also very fortunate in his circumstances. Those Boston teams were loaded with HOFers. Youre giving him credit for advantages like teammates, era, luck, and so forth. He played in an 8 team league bro. The "eleven rings" argument is simply cover for a lack of more concrete and logical justifications for ranking him so high.

Until the common media era nobody ranked players by rings. This is something people have just latched onto bc its been fed to them. Basketball is a team sport, nobody can individually control wins and losses. Ascribing team resukts to individuals is simply a shortcut for people who want to have an opinion without having to back it up logically. It was created by sportscasters who needed something to say on air when they had no legitimate points to make, and fans followed suit. Using rings to rank ANY player is not a valid justification on a logical level. Tell me ABOUT the player. What were his strengths? What were his impressive moments? How did his specific impact help produce wins?

"GOAT WINNER" as a catch-all reasoning is simply barren on an intellectual level.

[PsychoBe]

Yet he didnt make first team frequently because those players felt there were better overall centers, but he was the most valuable to his team. In other words, he was surrounded by offensive talent that was equally important to winning titles, but he stood out as the defensive anchor. Thats great and thats impressive, but youre acting like you could have dropped Russell onto any team and won titles. Thats simply not true. He was great but he was also very fortunate in his circumstances. Those Boston teams were loaded with HOFers. Youre giving him credit for advantages like teammates, era, luck, and so forth. What separates him as a PLAYER from Ben Wallace? Yeah he scored more points but adjust the averages for the era and how big is the difference? He played in an 8 team league bro. The "eleven rings" argument is simply cover for a lack of more concrete and logical justifications for ranking him so high.

Until the common media era nobody ranked players by rings. This is something people have just latched onto bc its been fed to them. Basketball is a team sport, nobody can individually control wins and losses. Ascribing team resukts to individuals is simply a shortcut for people who want to have an opinion without having to back it up logically. It was created by sportscasters who needed something to say on air when they had no legitimate points to make, and fans followed suit. Using rings to rank ANY player is not a valid justification on a logical level. Tell me ABOUT the player. What were his strengths? What were his impressive moments? How did his specific impact help produce wins?

"GOAT WINNER" as a catch-all reasoning is simply barren on an intellectual level.

this guy is so salty

if i told you that russel literally defined perimeter defense by showing it's better to defend while staying on your toes instead of being flat-footed, you'll just deny it.

if i told you that russell defended perimeter players as well as centers so well that his teammates would simply call his name and he'd contest their shot and rotate back onto his man and contest their shot in one seamless move, you'll just deny it.

if i told you that russell would purposefully block shots with his fingertips so that he could start the fast break and contribute to the large offensive pace which was only allowed due to the way he played defense, you'll just deny it.

if i told you that russell was such a good defender that he'd hold wilt to his lowest scoring averages in the post-season for the majority of his career, you'll just deny it.

just face it, you're in denial.

[bizil]

For sure in the top five GOAT wise! U got Cap, Wilt, Russ, Shaq and Duncan. I think Duncan would move past the other legendary centers like Hakeem, Moses, DRob, Big Pat, and Mikan. Peak wise, I would take Wilt, Shaq, Cap, and Hakeem over him. He could rank as high as fifth peak wise at center. I prefer his dominance on block in terms of skillset over Ewing and D Rob. And I prefer his defense over Moses.

These are the reasons why Timmy at PF is SUCH A BEAST. He has a legendary center's two way dominance BUT had the skillset of the new age big 6'10 and up PF's in the 90's(the skillset I give guys like Kemp, Webber, and Coleman for pioneering). Timmy could dominate from midrange, had handles, great passing for a big, and ran the floor well. But Tim could be a dominant two center, which is something Webber, Coleman, and Kemp couldn't be. Those three were pretty much pure PF's who could play center at times.

So Timmy could play away from the basket and dominate while giving up the paint to a center if needed. But he played with another legendary center in Robinson who was also one of the most versatile 7 footers of all time too. So they complemented each other PERFECTLY!

[Akrazotile]

this guy is so salty

if i told you that russel literally defined perimeter defense by showing it's better to defend while staying on your toes instead of being flat-footed, you'll just deny it.

if i told you that russell defended perimeter players as well as centers so well that his teammates would simply call his name and he'd contest their shot and rotate back onto his man and contest their shot in one seamless move, you'll just deny it.

if i told you that russell would purposefully block shots with his fingertips so that he could start the fast break and contribute to the large offensive pace which was only allowed due to the way he played defense, you'll just deny it.

if i told you that russell was such a good defender that he'd hold wilt to his lowest scoring averages in the post-season for the majority of his career, you'll just deny it.

just face it, you're in denial.

Salty? Denial? About what??? I have nothing against Bill Russell. I just asked for a better argument than "11 Rings, GOATWINNER."

You offered some reasons there that have merit, and thats all I was asking for. Arguments based specifically on Russells GAME, and not his circumstance.

Though I would still suggest to you that if you dont count silly arguments like "rings" (in an 8 team league during the early 60s with half a dozen HOF teammates), youd be hard pressed to make a convincing case over more complete two-way players like KAJ, Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan. I think people underestimate how much of their opinions on Wilt and Russell etc is just regurgitation of media consensus and standards than their own actual analysis.

[PsychoBe]

Salty? Denial? About what??? I have nothing against Bill Russell. I just asked for a better argument than "11 Rings, GOATWINNER."

You offered some reasons there that have merit, and thats all I was asking for. Arguments based specifically on Russells GAME, and not his circumstance.

Though I would still suggest to you that if you dont count silly arguments like "rings" (in an 8 team league during the early 60s with half a dozen HOF teammates), youd be hard pressed to make a convincing case over more complete two-way players like KAJ, Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan. I think people underestimate how much of their opinions on Wilt and Russell etc is just regurgitation of media consensus and standards than their own actual analysis.

people are saying he's the goatwinner because they already know the context behind his winning, but you didn't

i don't take wilt seriously due to the fact that he has the biggest ppg post-season drop-off in nba history, but russell was all about the team and he changed everything for the celtics. absolutely everything.

also remember that 8 teams means much fiercer competition every night and not going against the kemba walker hornets one night and the mcw 76ers another